Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We have reached a time in this country where we clearly have 2 visions of America.
One vision advocates strong government control and the sacrifice of individual rights for the benefit of a more structured society and increased socialist entitlements.
The other vision is of the traditional values of freedom, liberty, and self-dependence where government is much less intrusive in our day to day lives.
One solution to accommodate both visions would be a two tiered society.
You could accomplish this by having 2 different classes of citizen. For the benefit of example we will call these Class 1 and Class 2 citizens.
A class 1 citizen could be entitled to government entitlements, but would also be subject to all regulations, licenses, and permits required by government. Their rights would be subject to the democratic process and government regulation and could be granted or removed by a vote of the people.
A class 2 citizen would be entitled to no government entitlements, and would need to establish minimum levels of wealth, property ownership, IQ, and understanding of Law and Civics. They would also need to carry several million dollars’ worth of blanket liability insurance in order to satisfy any judgments that may result from any actions of negligence.
Their rights would be inalienable and not subject to question.
They would be exempt from regulation, license requirements, and permits.
They would be free to carry concealed weapons, Travel without restrictions, or being subject to TSA, or any other government agencies existing under "color of law". They would be exempt from prosecution for drug laws, or any other so called victimless crimes.
They could still be tried for felonies in which someone was victimized. But would be exempt, or pay non-criminal fines without arrest for misdemeanors and infractions.
Both classes would be subject to taxes on an equal basis.
Under this system both visions of America could be accommodated, and society would not feel as if one segment was infringing on the other segments rights.
Besides being unworkable, the idea that "One vision advocates strong government control and the sacrifice of individual rights for the benefit of a more structured society," is the sociology classic definition of society. John Locke (1632–1704) wrote that people have natural rights and not constrained. However, we form a social contract where people in a society give up some of their rights to the government in order to ensure a better society for all. Under natural rights, I have the right to take your life. In a society, I give up that right -- as do you, in order that individuals don't go around murdering each other and we empower the government to enforce that rule. It doesn't work when some maintain their natural right to kill and others give up that right.
Likewise, the idea of a two tier system where one tier gives up their rights while the other does not is silly. The whole idea of a society is that everyone has universal rights and universal obligations. Why would I grant rights to others that I don't have myself?
The notion of democracy is that the majority decides, within limits, what rules are best for the whole society. Besides, we all have to share the same country and airspace. What happens when my plane, which is regulated by the TSA is flying in the same airspace as your unregulated plane, subject to no controls whatsoever? Are we going to have two sets of food -- one subject to strict safety and the other not? Which one is going to be served in restaurants?
I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this one.
Besides being unworkable, the idea that "One vision advocates strong government control and the sacrifice of individual rights for the benefit of a more structured society," is the sociology classic definition of society. John Locke (1632–1704) wrote that people have natural rights and not constrained. However, we form a social contract where people in a society give up some of their rights to the government in order to ensure a better society for all. Under natural rights, I have the right to take your life. In a society, I give up that right -- as do you, in order that individuals don't go around murdering each other and we empower the government to enforce that rule. It doesn't work when some maintain their natural right to kill and others give up that right.
Likewise, the idea of a two tier system where one tier gives up their rights while the other does not is silly. The whole idea of a society is that everyone has universal rights and universal obligations. Why would I grant rights to others that I don't have myself?
The notion of democracy is that the majority decides, within limits, what rules are best for the whole society. Besides, we all have to share the same country and airspace. What happens when my plane, which is regulated by the TSA is flying in the same airspace as your unregulated plane, subject to no controls whatsoever? Are we going to have two sets of food -- one subject to strict safety and the other not? Which one is going to be served in restaurants?
I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this one.
It is not unworkable because we have had and to a large extent still do have multiple tiered societies today.
In Europe, feudal society was and still is to some degree successful.
Society even here in the US is tiered on the basis of wealth. Any lawyer will tell you that the US has the best system of justice money can buy. The wealth literally rule the world, it is just that we pretend that there is some semblance of self-determination and democracy.
Why not just be honest and acknowledge that we are not all equal.
Some of us were born to lead and some were born to be peasants.
We have reached a time in this country where we clearly have 2 visions of America.
One vision advocates strong government control and the sacrifice of individual rights for the benefit of a more structured society and increased socialist entitlements.
The other vision is of the traditional values of freedom, liberty, and self-dependence where government is much less intrusive in our day to day lives.
One solution to accommodate both visions would be a two tiered society.
You could accomplish this by having 2 different classes of citizen. For the benefit of example we will call these Class 1 and Class 2 citizens.
A class 1 citizen could be entitled to government entitlements, but would also be subject to all regulations, licenses, and permits required by government. Their rights would be subject to the democratic process and government regulation and could be granted or removed by a vote of the people.
A class 2 citizen would be entitled to no government entitlements, and would need to establish minimum levels of wealth, property ownership, IQ, and understanding of Law and Civics. They would also need to carry several million dollars’ worth of blanket liability insurance in order to satisfy any judgments that may result from any actions of negligence.
Their rights would be inalienable and not subject to question.
They would be exempt from regulation, license requirements, and permits.
They would be free to carry concealed weapons, Travel without restrictions, or being subject to TSA, or any other government agencies existing under "color of law". They would be exempt from prosecution for drug laws, or any other so called victimless crimes.
They could still be tried for felonies in which someone was victimized. But would be exempt, or pay non-criminal fines without arrest for misdemeanors and infractions.
Both classes would be subject to taxes on an equal basis.
Under this system both visions of America could be accommodated, and society would not feel as if one segment was infringing on the other segments rights.
You are talking about feudalism. I think a more reasonable approach would be voting rights requirements-
IQ greater than 110
property owner
veteran or active duty military
The above group of people have some skin in the game and would make better decisions. After that was done-
one term for all politicians and supreme court
balanced budget amendment (exception wartime)
all campaign funds returned after leaving office
no lobbying for lifetime after serving in office
You are talking about feudalism. I think a more reasonable approach would be voting rights requirements-
IQ greater than 110
property owner
veteran or active duty military
The above group of people have some skin in the game and would make better decisions. After that was done-
one term for all politicians and supreme court
balanced budget amendment (exception wartime)
all campaign funds returned after leaving office
no lobbying for lifetime after serving in office
While your suggestion would be a good start, it still fails to address the multitude of laws and regulations which have been imposed in contrast to the rights recognised by the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.
Many of these laws and regulations which are in oposition to the original vision of citizenship, have been put in place to deal with people who have little or no responsibility and impose unreasonable burdon on those who do.
The entire regulatory system is forced to establish a baseline with that basis being the lowest denominator of humanity.
As a result we have a system where it is impossible for anyone to function without breaking laws or regulations in some way. We then leave to the descression of LEO whether or how to apply or enforce those Laws.
LEO are neither constitutionaly empowered or qualified to make those decisions, and as a result we see abuse.
It would be better to recognise the fact that we are all not the same to begin with, and to structure our system of laws and regulation to deal with that fact.
It is no different than the way a court system functions when it decides wheather or not it has jurisdiction in certain matters.
This type of system with the simple inspection of someones identification would establish a governments officials jurisdiction over you.
This would simplify and streamline the system reducing strain on the court systems, and possibly eliminate most the multitudes of muti million dollar lawsuits filed against government for illegal actions.
They're truly disappointed and disheartened that such a large irresponsible class has evolved in our society.
They're disappointed and disheartened that any American would suggest a tiered society.
The idea of tiers in society is based on superiority and inferiority, an idea the Founders were vehemently opposed to.
They were well-acquainted with a divided society. The decision to declare independence from England wasn't a unanimous decision, loyalists were a significant part of the population. And after we became independent, the division between Federalists and Statists paralyzed this country. The Constitution was an extended and laborious negotiation between the two sides, and the issues that divided the country for decades after revolved around this divide. It was this divide that fueled the debate over slavery, whether the Federal government had the power to end slavery even if the state did not want to end slavery. The Civil War illustrates that division and disharmony that has always dominated the political scene.
The idea that division is something new is ridiculous on the face of it. There will always be political divides. There will always be widely different political perspectives. And there will always be a need to balance and negotiate and compromise in order to have an effective government.
There is finite quantity of resources & land, most of that is privately owned by a relatively small group of individuals. American expansion ended 150 years ago. There are few Indians left to kill and grab their space (that is of any value for survival). I think these libertarian "thinkers" plainly refuse to consider class structure of the modern societies where tiny group of individuals own survival means and the rest folks adjusts themselves to sell their arses successfully on labor market in order to get fed, clothed and sheltered. Think, if you need to "adjust" yourself in order to get fed, what freaking freedoms you are talking about? Freedom to choose appropriate to your circumstances self-adjusting strategy?
It takes little more than "personal efforts" and first class "citizenship" in the class system like this. Personal efforts and and rugged attitudes are good for unlimited expansion into the lands occupied by savages. In the complex civilized societies where everything is owned by somebody, it takes more than that to function and get closer to the trough. And no matter how everybody adjusts himself class structure demands that significant portion of the population would occupy lower floors of the social pyramid. In the past those lower classes could ship themselves to America to kill some Indian butt and climb to the upper levels of the American pyramid. Those days are long time gone.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe- 1749-1832
OP, your class 2 description sounds oddly a lot like a "sovereign citizen".
Whats wrong with giving people full freedom?
In this criminally corrupt nation we call the United States, the motto is "land of the free".
As a people, it would be hard to be "less free".
Think you actually own your house? Wrong. If you owned it, the government couldnt take it away due to nonpayment of property taxes. The very idea of allodial title scares politicians.
In this land of the free, you are not free to do what you want. The very idea of victimless crimes went away a long time ago. You are not free to do what you want to your own body, to ingest any particular chemical you want. Hell, you cant even bet on a football game outside of Nevada without violating a law.
Want to grow a garden on your own property to feed your family healthy and nutritious food? Nope, our corrupt big government can fine you for doing just that.
The list is never ending. This country is a joke and personally I cannot wait to see it crumble, and the idiot masses suffer. The people have allowed this to happen, the blame rests on their shoulders alone.
This grand experiment was successful for a while, but more importantly it has been an epic failure for much longer.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
