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I think every movement has its naysayers. Its a strategy to demoralize, shame, de-energize and ultimately silence an activist movement into the shadows. I remember when minorities were called animals for being vocal. Women were called jezebels, whores, or bad mothers for wanting careers or sexual liberation, gays were called perverts and deviants and attention mongers for demanding tolerance of their sexual conduct. Men will be called whiners and punks, because this is supposed to work as an affront to their traditional identity as a man. They are conditioned to be unemotional, and being called a whiner is an accusation of openly showing emotion. Yet, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Nothing ever gets accomplished or changed through silence and inaction; change certainly didnt happen by any of the other groups worrying about sounding like "whiners" or whatever. So I think men will just have to do like every other group and ignore it and continue to first bring attention to the issues they feel are important to them which can only happen through continuing to be vocal, and secondly addressing those issues as best they can internally....but I see no harm in men having advocates...all you can do is do what you feel is right - win, lose, or draw.
No one is bashing anyone for supporting men in being more emotional or to serve in nurturing roles. Women should register for the draft, and feminists fought for the ERA that would require them to do it. Male circumcision is an issue that should be addressed. I agree with all that. It's the rest of the drivel--the stuff that calls women liars, man haters, and pushes that men should have to take no responsibility for children they produce or marriages they leave, that most reasonable people have a problem with. That's not about ending discrimination--that's about not wanting to take responsibility, and blaming women for your own problems. You ARE a whiner when you focus on those issues.
The other side of any issue is not going to simply sit by and be silent. That has never happened in any equal rights battle.
I was at a marriage equality vigil a few weeks ago, we had people screaming in our faces. We had people throwing things at us. One person had their headlights busted.
Should I expect them to just go sit down and shut up? Should I expect them to not come protest?
No, but I should be able to expect someone fighting for gender equality to not oppose gender equality when it isn't their gender seeking it.
Any man that denies that men are treated unequally in some cases, is a supporter inequality and oppresses men who are victims of sexual assault and domestic violence.
Because men's rights groups are like rich people's rights group - like antennae on a person, like a third arm, like wearing clown shoes to work, like serving a fork with soup. In other words, unnecessary, irrelevant, ridiculous, stupid, and idiotic. Aside from that, they're cool!
They're a manifestation of an overwhelmingly powerful demographic that thinks it is being oppressed. And I say this as a (straight white) male.
When I hear "white pride" I don't think, "Well, those are some decent people who just want racial equality". No, I know perfectly well the sound of that dog-whistle and what it means. So it is with groups supposedly decidated to "men's rights". It's like the cheetah whining that the antelope isn't treating it fairly by not wanting to get devoured. And they all like the straight, or the Christian, who whines about the terrible oppression (they ignorantly and pathetically think) they face these days.
I know that by chance of birth, I got the easy route through life in many ways. And I'm not one of those whining pukes who thinks any traditionally oppressed group that seeks equality is somehow lessening my freedom, because I understand that freedom isn't a zero-sum game.
Here's what is typical of these groups:
*100 men rape 100 women.
Men's Rights Crowd: [nary a peep]
*1 woman falsely accuses 1 man of rape.
Men's Rights Crowd: [See? See how oppressed we are? See the obstacles we men face every day? Deliver us from this injustice!]
I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO FIGHT FOR ME. I EXPECT THEM TO KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT AND NOT OPPOSE US WHEN WE DO SPEAK ABOUT IT. Just as I have no say in abortion debates, women have no say in the circumcision debate.
Women are mothers, so they do have a say. I'm personally against it.
People don't just shut up and not oppose something that they are against. By that logic heterosexuals should have no say in the SSM debate. Men should have no say in the abortion debate. Yet both are still out there fighting.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
The studies do take into account the similarities . A man charged with a sexual crime, whit no criminal record will face longer jail time than a woman will.
Still no link to these "studies". You linked a news article with nothing to back it up other than we say so.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
Do you have something against men speaking up about their issues and inequalitie? If not, then why are you still here?
Go, speak out. No one is telling you not to, but you are being unrealistic thinking that other people aren't going to oppose you.
I don't oppose most of your beliefs, but whining about others opposing you does nothing for your case.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
That's how it should be. You are ignoring that feminists are actively fighting against men's rights groups. They protest their events without cause.
And churches are actively fighting against my rights. And men are fighting against abortion. It happens to every group. You can either del with it and continue to fight, or you can whine about others opposing you.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
But you would think that a group that has had to undergo similar opposition would not resist or fight against us. This is what I am trying to get at. If you had to fight tooth and nail for your rights, I would think you would not oppose someone trying to fight for theirs.
And yet many fight against others rights. That is life. Get over it and move on.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
Losing is not an option. I will burn anyone who gets in my way from now on.
OR you can keep using legal means to move your case forward. You can actually present a case with logic, instead of "I can't afford an attorney" or "there is a stigma for men to use the system already in place"
My grandmother was a house wife, her only option. She couldn't even have a bank account in her own name without her husband signing for her. She was abused, and left him with the children, not a penny to her name. There were no shelters for her, there was no legal aid for her. She got out there and cleaned the lawyers office to pay for legal expenses. She worked nights at a hotel to support the kids. No alimony, no nothing. She FOUGHT, she didn't WHINE.
Then she worked to get services for others in her position. There is even a womens shelter with her name on it that she went to private donors to raise money to buy and run.
I have asked lawyers in the area and none are willing to take it on without a major payment first. I don't make enought to file a lawsuit. There are no laws restricting men from being at the park with their kids or working at a daycare. Men don't work there because they won't get hired, society has this stigmata that all men are suspect if they want to work with kids.
Well, honey welcome to the world. You are in the same boat as everyone when it comes to finding a decent lawyer and paying their fees. Again, the same gender discrimination laws protect men and women from being denied employment based on gender. Daycare pays minimum wage and usually has no benefits. Most men don’t want to work for mw. How do you explain the number of men teaching children in higher paying positions?
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So my option is to be discriminated against or be broke and jobless, I get that. This is why I am seeking new employment. I am forced to walk home at night as I don't make enough to buy a car. Never said laws even needed to guarantee such a thing.
How are you being discriminated against because you continue to work at your job. Find another one. Is your present financial status a men’s rights issue. Can I blame men for my current employment situation and claim it as a women’s right issue. Hey I want more money too!
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Some are rights, some are issues. I do activly advocate for men's rigths and issues. I don't allow feminists to tell me what I can or can't do, I don't need their permission. I'm just tired of them harassing every men's rights advocate and calling us rape apologists and fascists. Yes, several members of feminist organizations have called me and other MRA's fascists. They want the only voice on gender equality because to them, gender equality is about their equality, not men. If men have legitamet issues and unequality in some areas, it removed their idea of male privilage being universal.
What specifically have you done for men’s issues and what particular issues?
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Those statistics aren't accurate as men don't report such things due to social stigmas.
As has been pointed out to you multiple times, it is your responsibility to report crimes
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Oh, so men have to fight for it now? Men and women should not be ashamed to report such things. The onus is on society to make these people feel safe and not like they will be ridiculed. Women have it much easier than men do when it comes to reporting these crimes. They have avenues of escape in the form of shelters that bar men from entry and other resources. Men have few resources available and are often times told to go to anger management classes.
Yes, exactly. We have all had to fight for our rights when we felt the need, women, minorities, handicapped, gays. Why do you feel entitled to have everything handed to you. Women have fought for these avenues. It was not always so.
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We're trying to, but when feminists tell us we're a joke for even suggesting such things, it doesn't help us. It makes people not want to take it seriously. They deny that they are part of the problem and when you call them out on it, you're being sexist.
Are you that weak? What feminists. I am not even aware of any feminist groups unless I google them. They are organizations like any other organization. The only power they hold is lobbying politicians as special interest groups. Where are you running into all these “feminists” that are bullying you and trying to tell you what to do.
If they're working on issues where men truly face discrimination and challenges, then of course they have the support of people concerned about equality.
This to me is all that needed to be said. The rest is hot air that in my opinion could be applied to any movement. Of course every movement will have its misguided rogue agents, and radicals. Using those elements as rationale to marginalize and to try to make illegitimate the entire group, however, is wrong headed. I wouldnt dare just assume that just because these feminists or radical women's rights assclowns use the idea that: because women should be allowed in combat, that therefore they ALSO believe women have the same strength or physical capabilities as men and therefore their Domestic Violence statistics should be given absolute equal weight. Likewise, I have never seen where all or even most men's rights advocates, believe that just because some women lie about rape, that therefore, most or all women are lying about rape. I dont think its detrimental to anyone to accept the POSSIBILITY that anyone could be lying about any crime they report. People frame others all the time. And evaluating that possibility is a realistic and routine part of the criminal justice system. However the only time casting doubt on a victim's claim or considering the possibility of a falsified police report becomes taboo is in cases of rape..the question we should ask is what makes rape completely off limits given the fact that false police reports in general DO occur within the realm of law enforcement.
Last edited by soletaire; 04-10-2013 at 12:03 PM..
If they're working on issues where men truly face discrimination and challenges, then of course they have the support of people concerned about equality. The problem comes in with the issues they're raising as "discriminatory"--like ending child support and alimony, etc. etc. That's not about equality--that's about not wanting to carry your fair share of the load or taking personal responsibility, and then blaming women for having to do it. If you're concerned that they under report, then you need to deal with the culture of other MEN that make that difficult--most women are very supportive of anyone, male or female, who've faced that type of violence.
I don't really want to end alimony as much as I think it needs to be fixed so that it is more affordable, same with child support. I do think that men should have an option of giving up all parental rights and financial obligations.
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The other factor comes in when they refuse to acknowledge that there are some crimes--like rape and domestic violence--when men really are the vast majority of the perps--it's NOT just that they under report. Both crimes are about dominance and control. When men and boys are raped, they are MOST OFTEN raped by other men. Are there female rapists of children? Sure, but if they get caught, they go to jail just like everyone else, and the same kind of counseling is available to male victims--both children and adult survivors--that are available to female victims.
You cannot say that the vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated by men, when every organization agrees that not all crimes are reported for men and women. Women have less of a stigma when it comes to reporting.
Reasons men don't report:
Shame
What will my friends, family, colleagues and neighbors think?
What will people think if they knew I let a woman beat up on me?
It's a private matter--belongs in the family
If I say anything, she'll tell everyone I'm the abusive one, and shame me in public
I'm ashamed I'm not strong enough to defend myself.
Everyone knows it's men that are the violent ones (shame of male for being male)
Self-Worth
I probably deserved it.
This is the best I deserve.
With my looks, or age, or personality, or income, this is as good a relationship as I'll ever be able to get.
Denial
It's not that bad.
All I have to do is leave the house until she cools down. (That's what TV star Phil Hartman said , before his wife murdered him and killed herself.)
I can weather this one, just like I did the others.
Reluctance to Give Up the Good
If people got to know her, they'd see what a creative, or loving, or wonderful person she is.
She's like this only some of the time.
The sex is great, and I can put up with being batted around a little.
I'd be lost without a relationship with her.
I'd be lost without a relationship.
Inertia
It's too hard to do anything.
I'm not ready for that much change in my life.
I'll do it tomorrow, or later, when I'm not so busy.
Sounds like a lot of work--more to take care of than I can handle right now.
Force of habit. I'm used to life the way it is now.
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As far as domestic violence, there are instances where women really do follow the "cycle of violence" common to most abusive relationships: socially isolate men so they have no support network, make them financially dependent on them, and keep them in constant fear of their lives through serious physical assault--but it doesn't happen often. A slap on the face from anyone is wrong, but that alone isn't what keeps people paralyzed in relationships and unable to leave an abusive partner. Men, just because of their size and strength, in most cases can do a lot more damage than women. Most men work, so they have financial independence plus they have more access to other adults around them--they can LEAVE and they aren't as socially isolated--they can seek support. Unless a woman is hitting you with a 2x4, or she's twice your size, she's not likely to hurt you to the point where you are in constant fear of being hurt, or for your life. I'm not taking away from the fact than SOME men are DV victims, but it doesn't happen all that often. Most of the male DV victims I've seen are gay and being hurt by another male.
Just because you don't see it being reported that often.
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The other problem is when these men's rights bozos seem to partner all of this with the line that most women who claim that they've been raped or abused are filing false claims and lying. My experience is that most of them have a history of violence themselves, and they just want to blame the world and not take responsibility for their own behavior.
Not all men's rights advocate think all women are lying. We just think the punishment for false accusers should be more than a slap on the hand.
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