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Even during the height of the great recession, the unemployment rate among college grads was only about 4%. Still I think a lot of it may be more correlation than causation It takes a lot of persistence to make it through the 3rd & 4th year of undergrad, and those who can push through to success there are likely to push through to success in employment too.
It doesn't mean that there is not a lot of fluff and waste in the higher ed system.
I'd put my view closer to wutitiz than mb1547 on this one (surprisingly). I think education is generally a good deal, but like anything else, good and bad deals abound. A well-priced degree program is a great investment for sure, but borrowing $100k for a music history degree at a private school is not going to cash flow. I am a big fan of the community colleges. A steal for the first couple years. Get all that high brow life of the mind stuff as an upper division or graduate student.
What Will Hunting did took genius because he only had the public library to learn in. But now we all have the internet at our fingertips.
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As I recall, I learned about European history, psychology, art history, calculus, physics, chemistry, genetics, plant and animal physiology, political science, technical writing, research skills and the scientific method, and a whole lot more in college.
Aside from the sciences which require laboratories, you could easily learn any of those subjects today at home for free. European history? I took courses on it in college but I've learned far more in the last few years just watching documentaries on youtube.
Last edited by The Dark Enlightenment; 05-03-2013 at 11:40 PM..
I'd put my view closer to wutitiz than mb1547 on this one (surprisingly). I think education is generally a good deal, but like anything else, good and bad deals abound. A well-priced degree program is a great investment for sure, but borrowing $100k for a music history degree at a private school is not going to cash flow. I am a big fan of the community colleges. A steal for the first couple years. Get all that high brow life of the mind stuff as an upper division or graduate student.
Great advice. Most of the time, the difference between those who came out with far above average loan amounts and those who came out with small loans is discipline. Recognizing how to maximize the bang for the buck. It is not the Woodstock era; college should not be first and foremost for partying, taking expensive spring breaks, getting a low GPA, and minimizing ones shot at scholarships, grants, etc. Yes, the personal value from enriching ones experiences is terrific, but to get a good ROI, one should be clearly linking the expense they incur, the courses they take, the major they choose..with long-term career goals.
It isn't that college degrees are valuable or a good investment in their own right. College is simply a hoop that must be jumped through to prove to employers that you aren't an idiot. With disparate impact rules making it impossible to test new recruits, companies have no other way of judging who is smart enough and who isn't. If they were allowed to give job applicants a battery of apptitude tests before hiring them, the need for degrees would largely disappear.
??? Shouldn't my 3.9 high school GPA (top 5% of my class) and 1300+ SAT (the old version where max is 1600) prove I'm not an idiot?
I didn't worry much about what the masses were telling me when I was finishing up HS any more than what they are telling me today. Had I listened to conventional wisdom in 2006, I would have been rushing out to buy my first home. Of course, we all know how that would have worked out going forward... Much like housing, I think the college degree is reaching bubble territory. How can I suggest such a thing? When employers are asking for college degrees to handle various paper shuffling/customer service roles that a HS student could tackle, I think that says enough.
Are college grads as an aggregate going to earn more? Of course. Smart people go to college. Smart people who work hard are generally quite capable of graduating without much issue. If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on them if I wanted to make a sure buck. Are there smart people who also skip college and work directly in the occupation of their choosing? They've always existed, and they had no problem learning their occupations through experience. Today however, this is comparatively more challenging than generations past. We are adding the extra hurdle of a college degree to begin that first step in more occupations than ever. So basically, you're probably going to have to grease a bankster's wheel if you want to do anything besides flip burgers or clean toilets for a living.
Is the ROI for a college degree comparatively better than the alternative? Yes, but for less wholesome reasons. Also due in part to the types of individuals who are attracted to the college route. Luckily, there are some alternatives, and experience does seem to be strongly valued in many occupations. I skipped the 26K college degree and spent about 7K on tools. The return on investment has been quite a bit more significant. You see, I'm not so much a group-think guy. I'm more concerned about #1. I also don't push my philosophy or strategy on others. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it's applicable or practical for the masses.
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Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment
Aside from the sciences which require laboratories, you could easily learn any of those subjects today for free on the internet.
True, but you're not getting the college's daily recommended dose of *******.
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Originally Posted by Fiddlehead
This is foolish. A college degree often provides many very useful bits of knowledge. As I recall, I learned about European history, psychology, art history, calculus, physics, chemistry, genetics, plant and animal physiology, political science, technical writing, research skills and the scientific method, and a whole lot more in college. I have a fairly high IQ, but I would never have just "figured it out" on my own. The Good Will hunting story is pretty good, but unless you are a true genius, chances are a college degree will give you a tremendous boost in understanding of the history, structure, and behavior of the world. It will also help to immunize you from the first sign of a fool, that you don't know how much they don't know, and will make listening to asses like Rush Limbaugh pure torture, as it should be for anyone with the ability to think independently.
The library is free to anyone interested. Quite a bit cheaper than the 26K average that people are paying for the souvenir to hang on the wall. Did plenty of reading on my free time learning about European history as a kid, but that's was more out of interest. Later on, I didn't much care what some professor thought of my interpretation and understanding of the Anabaptist rebellion of Munster during the 16th century. Heck, the guy probably couldn't cut it doing any other job in the private sector. College can teach these things, and effectively if you care to learn. Fact is though, college does not hold a patent on facts or world history. They just force you to learn through operant conditioning (punishment). Learn it or repeat the class, at your own expense.
I will agree though, Limbaugh is a complete buffoon on the order of many of his competing liberal elitist propagandist mouthpieces.
??? Shouldn't my 3.9 high school GPA (top 5% of my class) and 1300+ SAT (the old version where max is 1600) prove I'm not an idiot?
It should be. And if companies need more proof of your competence in specific areas you should be able to demonstrate it by passing an exam to get a license or qualification. There is no good reason why anyone should be required to spend 4-10 years after high school, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, undergo indoctrination, and go into massive debt just to show they are qualified for an entry level job. In the internet age, college is largely a scam. It is a jobs program for the elite and a means of molding the populace into PC conformity.
This is why I roll my eyes at the idiot posts here about "worthless" degrees that should be banned at universities, because I promise you--those liberal arts majors are still finding decent jobs a heck of a lot faster, and making much more money over time, than someone with a High School Diploma ever will. A college degree is always a good investment.
Uh, those degrees are still idiotic. Just less idiotic than sitting on your ass watching TV for 4 years.
. It is a jobs program for the elite and a means of molding the populace into PC conformity.
LOL-the elite! Get real. We would have 98% fewer universities without the middle and lower classes. 1 0r 2% of Americans, the elite, hardly need millions of available college seats.
But Republicans keep telling us higher education isn't worth it and the only real Americans are the high school drop outs who vote for them. You see their anti-intellectual, anti-science position every day on this very forum.
bobtn, the elites are the people who teach in and run the universities, not the students.
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