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Of course it's applicable for 'the masses'. I suppose you think only the 'elite' should attend college? For most people, college IS the path to a better life and better income.
No, I believe it should be based on past HS grades, which measures work ethic, and some form of IQ or standardized test battery. If you fail, than you can pay for your college education out of pocket. Example, GWB would have had his entire education bought and paid for by his wealthy parents. You libs all want to live like Europe, except you don't want standardized measures to determine who get's free education after HS. And nobody wants to work in the trades, or clean toilets, which are jobs deemed "beneath them". Basically, libs don't want to live in the real, yet most efficient world.
And college can't be the path to a better future for everyone... Someone still has to clean toilets. Just because we have more grads doesn't mean more jobs will be created for them. Example, my bartender tonight was a college grad who now works 20 hours a week in Chicago. To afford rent, he splits the bills four ways with 3 other roommates. Real world... Supply side economics is a fallacy in this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
Had you READ the article, you'd know 15.2% was the result of the study comparing lifetime earnings college grad to the hs grad, after calculating for the cost of college , including not earning f/t pay from 18-22 years of age.
And if you compared the average HS grad IQ vs college grad IQ, what do you believe you would get? Due to the barriers to entry, I would expect the college crowd to harbor a higher IQ, which in my opinion, explains the 15.2%. Could I be any more clear?
[quote=andywire;29425393 And if you compared the average of HS grad IQ vs college grad IQ, what do you believe you would get? Due to the barriers to entry, I would expect the college crowd to harbor a higher IQ, which in my opinion, explains the 15.2%. [/quote]
I'd agree it is a part of not close to all the 15.2%.
Manufacturing used to provide great incomes for hs grads, while Japan and Europe were in ruins, and Chinese in rice paddies. That ended, Health Insurance ate up any money available for continuous 5%+ average blue collar wage gains, and automation happened, reducing sharply the headcount required.
That leaves few avenues available for the sharp hs grad other than college which provide a highly likely shot at earning a lifetime of excellent salaries. For the most part, employers look at any 18 year old hs grad just like any other 18 year old hs grad. While you may have done well up to age 26 by working 60 hours per week, there are many hs grads for every one of you at a McJob, and the odds are, per BLS earning data, most will stay at McJobs.
Awesome. Congrats on avoiding student loans. I know many who have, including my godson who is getting his Masters this month with NO student loan debt as well, already having a corporate job at a large multi-national.
Thanks, but I guess the congrats (in terms of the financial aspects) should go to my parents, who worked very hard to be able to provide their children with debt-free educations... and they both have post-grad degrees themselves, which in my father's case brought him out of poverty. So needless to say, my family is very much in favor of higher education! I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to succeed, but it certainly does make that road less rocky.
Congrats to your godson too, and I promise he won't regret that commitment. Just about everyone I know with college & post-grad degrees has weathered this economic crisis fairly well, and the only ones who are currently "unemployed" are not working by choice (stay-at-home parents, retirees, etc). In my opinion, college is the best investment one can make.
Thanks, but I guess the congrats (in terms of the financial aspects) should go to my parents, who worked very hard to be able to provide their children with debt-free educations... and they both have post-grad degrees themselves, which in my father's case brought him out of poverty. So needless to say, my family is very much in favor of higher education! I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to succeed, but it certainly does make that road less rocky.
Congrats to your godson too, and I promise he won't regret that commitment. Just about everyone I know with college & post-grad degrees has weathered this economic crisis fairly well, and the only ones who are currently "unemployed" are not working by choice (stay-at-home parents, retirees, etc). In my opinion, college is the best investment one can make.
Thanks. His dad is a p/t college instructor, with a full-time job besides that, and both parents have Masters degrees. He has 3 youger siblings, and I'm sure all will obtain a Bachelor's degree at minimum. His 16 year old brother is actually the most intelligent of the kids.
I'd agree it is a part of not close to all the 15.2%.
Manufacturing used to provide great incomes for hs grads, while Japan and Europe were in ruins, and Chinese in rice paddies. That ended, Health Insurance ate up any money available for continuous 5%+ average blue collar wage gains, and automation happened, reducing sharply the headcount required.
Manufacturing was also providing good paying jobs in Japan and Germany during this time period. In fact, the Germans continued to do quite well due to their reputation for quality and workmanship. America gained the reputation of the large scale producer of the world, not necessarily known for quality. There's where America went wrong. Now we can't compete in this category due to China, Vietnam, India, etc. Even if you wanted to compete in quality, you suits wouldn't want to fork over the money for the quality worker. So, expect to see Germany maintain a strong blue collar workforce while ours slips deeper.
What has changed is automation. Guess what? That requires blue collar workers too. You don't have even .5% of the population interested in pursuing these types of occupations. Who do you think is telling the computers what to do Bob?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
That leaves few avenues available for the sharp hs grad other than college which provide a highly likely shot at earning a lifetime of excellent salaries. For the most part, employers look at any 18 year old hs grad just like any other 18 year old hs grad. While you may have done well up to age 26 by working 60 hours per week, there are many hs grads for every one of you at a McJob, and the odds are, per BLS earning data, most will stay at McJobs.
Fewer opportunities, yet hardly enough HS students with a brain considering them. The process of putting the tab on a coke can in automated. A small carbide crimp tool is used to place this item on the can. You realize a skilled worker has to make this tool, right? In fact, it's a very long process of burning and grinding this very tough material. How many of these have you made before Bob? It's not a job you simply give some guy off the street. You deem yourself an expert on topics you have never been involved with. Your claim to fame is you work for a large parts integrator, yet your company probably doesn't produce but 20% of the widgets that go into the products. More than likely, your company simply outsources most of the skilled work. How many molds and dies are made in house? What happens when those suppliers run out of 60 YO mold and die makers? Then you'll be running to Germany and asking it's high paid blue collar employing companies to make your crap.
Just saying, there is opportunities in other professions, and many of them also require a brain. Your 2 dimensional mode of thinking is bound to create a do nothing caste rule America.
And I don't work 60 hours a week. Not anymore. I did when I started out in my teens. Sure beat burger flipping, and gave me a good opportunity to learn an actual career. Also beat paying someone to teach me. Anyone else could have done the same thing, but they chose not to. That's their fault. Most of your HS grads today seem to lack the work ethic, drive, math and ability to follow directions to learn these types of occupations. They all went to college. The mold maker told his kid not to follow in his footsteps.
Thanks, but I guess the congrats (in terms of the financial aspects) should go to my parents, who worked very hard to be able to provide their children with debt-free educations... and they both have post-grad degrees themselves, which in my father's case brought him out of poverty. So needless to say, my family is very much in favor of higher education! I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to succeed, but it certainly does make that road less rocky.
Congrats to your godson too, and I promise he won't regret that commitment. Just about everyone I know with college & post-grad degrees has weathered this economic crisis fairly well, and the only ones who are currently "unemployed" are not working by choice (stay-at-home parents, retirees, etc). In my opinion, college is the best investment one can make.
In most cases it's a sound investment. Kids who come out of college deep in debt with an unmarketable degree would have done better to just work.
Millions of reasonably bright people spending their early adulthood producing nothing of value... running up debt, living off parents and the government? Tens of thousands of very bright people being paid high, government subsidized salaries to teach these millions material that often isn't of any interest/use to them, material that they could easily learn on their own if they were interested? I'm not saying that no useful learning occurs, but isn't the inefficiency in the system obvious?
it depends on who is getting the degree. minority, esp AA, i agree a college degree is the way to go.
for whites, who are not the object of quotas and recruiting programs, a degree is not the best move, a trade would be better and more profitable.
it depends on who is getting the degree. minority, esp AA, i agree a college degree is the way to go.
for whites, who are not the object of quotas and recruiting programs, a degree is not the best move, a trade would be better and more profitable.
It still depends on what fields you are looking at. Electrician vs human resources vs carpentry vs financial engineering aren't exactly comparable fields. Electricians would do well to gain some experience and then move to a better country while financial engineers are going to have a hard time finding a better financial market.
This is why I roll my eyes at the idiot posts here about "worthless" degrees that should be banned at universities, because I promise you--those liberal arts majors are still finding decent jobs a heck of a lot faster, and making much more money over time, than someone with a High School Diploma ever will. A college degree is always a good investment.
I disagree. The debt burden is so high unless you're one of them who can manage to work and go to school and get no sleep... I'd go to college only if I knew what I was going to do was in high demand... engineers, pharmacists, nurses, teachers, doctors... all professions where you can move anywhere and find a good job. Although as a doctor I'd hope you can be one of them who can think outside the mainstream medical establishment box.. I've been less than satisfied with many I've come across. The 20 year old I started working with recently told me he quit college. The college in our town offers pharmacy... his argument is the cost to be a pharmacist would be high.. then again he tells me he wants to move to NYC or Cali.. well without a degree he won't be able to afford to do that, but I see his point about the debt burden... BUT.. he'd make more than double per year what he would make where I'm employed just by a quick google... especially in CA.
For blue collar stuff, merely having a good work history is enough. Very few pay decent wages anymore, mine just happens too.. so I have no debt, plenty of savings, and a decent wage. Actually a number of college grads work here as they can't find good paying work in their chosen field.
If not the above listed professions, a car mechanic, plumber, or electrician are good choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment
Millions of reasonably bright people spending their early adulthood producing nothing of value... running up debt, living off parents and the government? Tens of thousands of very bright people being paid high, government subsidized salaries to teach these millions material that often isn't of any interest/use to them, material that they could easily learn on their own if they were interested? I'm not saying that no useful learning occurs, but isn't the inefficiency in the system obvious?
I'd argue that the top and bottom both suck from the middle... many at the very top produce little of value and merely use their money to make money, or as a reward for making them successful, they ship the jobs to China.. many large corporations get bailouts, as do people at the bottom on welfare and assisted living. It's the single white male making a middle class or upper middle class wages, say from $35-100k (especially if they are divorced and have to pay child support), that has the greatest tax burden. Business owners can write everything off and file bankruptcy.. tax code needs some adjusting to level everything out, imo. That said I would not want to be making minimum wage on assisted living. I'd argue that the people with the worst work get paid the lowest wages and deserve better. But with a strong dollar policy they will not get better. Ultimately it's up to the individual to better themselves.
Last edited by sholomar; 05-04-2013 at 10:59 PM..
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The 20 year old I started working with recently told me he quit college. The college in our town offers pharmacy... his argument is the cost to be a pharmacist would be high.. then again he tells me he wants to move to NYC or Cali.. well without a degree he won't be able to afford to do that, but I see his point about the debt burden... BUT.. he'd make more than double per year what he would make where I'm employed just by a quick google... especially in CA. 
