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Zimmerman did begin the initial confrontation by following someone, even after the police department asked him not to. He should be in jail, IMO.
Obviously, you didn't pay attention to the law in this case. There is no law against following someone. Even if you want there to be, there isn't. So in affect that means Zimmerman didn't break any law. There is a law against ASSAULT. That's what Martin did. He physically attacked Zimmerman. Plenty of evidence presented in the trial documenting the injuries. So in essence no crimes were committed by either party until Martin ASSAULTED Zimmerman.
By the way, even without SYG, GZ being the one to leave his house and follow TM would have no bearing on guilt. Of course this much should be obvious given that he didn't even try to use SYG as a defense.
Following is not illegal regardless of SYG, and at the point of the altercation, retreat was not an option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan
Zimmerman did begin the initial confrontation by following someone, even after the police department asked him not to. He should be in jail, IMO.
Well that's just like, your opinion, man.
Following someone is not illegal and has no bearing on guilt under the legal system.
You really don't want to open that can of worms. If you think GZ leaving is grounds to deny him the claim of self defense, you are essentially arguing that TM was justified in attacking. So what do we have now? The expansion of self defense into "reasonable fear of death, grave bodily injury, or some guy you think is following you."
By the way, even without SYG, GZ being the one to leave his house and follow TM would have no bearing on guilt. Of course this much should be obvious given that he didn't even try to use SYG as a defense.
Following is not illegal regardless of SYG, and at the point of the altercation, retreat was not an option.
Well that's just like, your opinion, man.
Following someone is not illegal and has no bearing on guilt under the legal system.
You really don't want to open that can of worms. If you think GZ leaving is grounds to deny him the claim of self defense, you are essentially arguing that TM was justified in attacking. So what do we have now? The expansion of self defense into "reasonable fear of death, grave bodily injury, or some guy you think is following you."
Not going to happen.
It would be any fear is enough to justify use of force. That's called gangster mentality.
The initial confrontation only began when Trayvon's fist started to move.
You as a free citizen do not need to obey anybody's order to stop doing something totally legal such as following someone, even that order is from the President of the United States.
But president Obama isn't the law or a police official. The PD wanted zim to stop following to avoid the incidents which followed, a confrontation and a homicide. But with zim's mentality of possessing a firearm, and believing he was within his right using the SYG, pursued an individual walking through an apartment complex. He legally murdered a human being.
Running away and then coming all the way back around the block to attack is not standing your ground.
And not in any court of law.
We don't know if that happened. That is just a guess. It makes no sense. Trayvon was on the phone, if he was circling back looking for Zimmerman, he would have told Rachel that. Instead, he told her the "cracker" came up behind him. He said "oh **, there he is again." or something to that effect. Those are not the words of someone laying in wait to attack. There's no logic to him laying in wait to attack Zimmerman. If he wanted to attack, why would he have run away?
It appears they encountered each other accidentally, or that Zimmerman followed behind Trayvon. In either scenario, if I'd been Trayvon I would have felt threatened, and being a woman I would have probably pepper-sprayed Zimmerman.
What's pathetic is your inability to disconnect two obviously separate events.
There's nothing wrong with following someone. Following someone does not equal pursuit either, but nice try slipping that in.
How would you feel if someone was following your daughter or wife on a dark rainy night? Would you still feel the same way? I guess because Trayvon was a male or black those feelings should not have counted.
In which universe was Zimmerman acquitted of charges under SYG?
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Originally Posted by NoJiveMan
ALEC and the NRA are culpable for the wording and SYG laws, see the video I uploaded in a previous post for the explanation.
Irrelevant too, who writes the act is not even a whole part of the whole process. It has to be raised in States Congress, read, voted on passed to the other house re-read, voted on and passed again, incorporating any amendments. Who wrote it isn't really relevant to that proceeding, because States Representatives and Senators should read it understand it and then vote for it, they're the ones who own the culpability if you believe there is any.
We don't know if that happened. That is just a guess. It makes no sense. Trayvon was on the phone, if he was circling back looking for Zimmerman, he would have told Rachel that. Instead, he told her the "cracker" came up behind him. He said "oh **, there he is again." or something to that effect. Those are not the words of someone laying in wait to attack. There's no logic to him laying in wait to attack Zimmerman. If he wanted to attack, why would he have run away?
It appears they encountered each other accidentally, or that Zimmerman followed behind Trayvon. In either scenario, if I'd been Trayvon I would have felt threatened, and being a woman I would have probably pepper-sprayed Zimmerman.
Actually you have it completely wrong.
If you listened to the people on the jury, they figured out how you can put that scenario to sleep.
They compared the time stamps on all the phone conversations, what his girlfriend said, what Zimmerman was saying, and what time the calls terminated.
When you cross reference those known facts, there is no way Zimmerman was not exactly where he said he was and no doubt TM couldn't have backtracked towards GZ. Otherwise, TM & GZ would have me-up further down past the T and would have had to amicable walked together to the T to begin any altercation.
In which universe was Zimmerman acquitted of charges under SYG?
Irrelevant too, who writes the act is not even a whole part of the whole process. It has to be raised in States Congress, read, voted on passed to the other house re-read, voted on and passed again, incorporating any amendments. Who wrote it isn't really relevant to that proceeding, because States Representatives and Senators should read it understand it and then vote for it, they're the ones who own the culpability if you believe there is any.
Yes, it is relevant, because the SYG laws were written and adopted by the NRA and ALEC and states which have SYG laws, huge lobbyist groups.
Zim's defense was not based upon SYG, but on self defense, but the zim used that SYG theory when he pursued Martin. Otherwise, he would not have gone after Martin.
We don't know if that happened. That is just a guess. It makes no sense. Trayvon was on the phone, if he was circling back looking for Zimmerman, he would have told Rachel that. Instead, he told her the "cracker" came up behind him. He said "oh **, there he is again." or something to that effect. Those are not the words of someone laying in wait to attack. There's no logic to him laying in wait to attack Zimmerman. If he wanted to attack, why would he have run away?
It's irrelevant. We're discussing law, and you're trying to obfuscate by bringing in hypotheticals about who could possibly be lying.
All that's relevant as far as this particular case is concerned is law and what can be proven.
I don't know why either of them did what they did or what the hell happened out there. But um, your witness is about as biased as a person can be and I wouldn't put much stock into what she has to say. That story is completely unsupported by the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint
It appears they encountered each other accidentally, or that Zimmerman followed behind Trayvon. In either scenario, if I'd been Trayvon I would have felt threatened, and being a woman I would have probably pepper-sprayed Zimmerman.
You would have circled the block, came back, and pepper sprayed him?
That's retarded.
If he approached you threateningly you could shoot him dead. But nobody even claims that we could prove that's what happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan
Yes, it is relevant, because the SYG laws were written and adopted by the NRA and ALEC and states which have SYG laws, huge lobbyist groups.
Zim's defense was not based upon SYG, but on self defense, but the zim used that SYG theory when he pursued Martin. Otherwise, he would not have gone after Martin.
And what makes you think he was pursuing with the thought of SYG in mind?
That's right, nothing.
Because if he had this master plan to kill the kid and lie, it wouldn't have mattered whether he invoked SYG or not. I would think that would be obvious, given that he felt no need to evoke it when the trial came around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime
How would you feel if someone was following your daughter or wife on a dark rainy night? Would you still feel the same way?
Uh, I'd say keep your cool, and if he approaches you threateningly and makes you reasonably fear for your life, blow him away.
What I wouldn't say is run away and then come back and try to beat his ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime
I guess because Trayvon was a male or black those feelings should not have counted.
GTFO
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer
It would be any fear is enough to justify use of force. That's called gangster mentality.
It would be SYG on crack. Apparently SYG is horrible. But that on the other hand is perfectly fine.
Better yet, let's just decide the law on a case by case basis. Hell, why even have laws and trials and all that crap? George Zimmerman killed a black teen with skittles, we should have just had a referendum, lynched him and left it at that.
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