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“[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
"Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
I'm sick of the politicians who have hijacked the flag, constantly wearing the flag lapel and all. It's almost like they have to keep reminding us that they are Americans. Sometimes I wonder.
And I have to admit, because of this corporate-like use of the flag, I don't look at it the same way as I did... say as when I was a kid.... or heck, even 10 years ago. Honestly, for what I associate the flag with today - and how it's been cheapened by the far right to further their fake patriotic agenda - I can say I cringe a bit when I see it on people's cars...or at the bottom of the screen on Fox News or whatever - for what it seemingly has come to represent - pro war, pro Bush... and seemingly... pro idiocy.
Hopefully someday, I'll look at that flag and feel proud of it again. Right now, I really don't.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Because of what the far right has done, many in the mainstream and left are now turned off by the flag, which no longer represents the USA but a right wing agenda in the minds of many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1
Boy I believe Christians are the most maligned group on P&C. It is a good thing we have tough skins!
And this is not an attack on Christianity itself. Its about how the extreme right wing of the religion has become almost indistinguishable with the Republican Party over the last 7 years and has hijacked our nation's most sacred symbol to represent their agenda.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Because of what the far right has done, many in the mainstream and left are now turned off by the flag, which no longer represents the USA but a right wing agenda in the minds of many.
Just a gentle reminder: if the left wing's faith in the country's symbols is so easily shaken -- especially by the opinions of those whom they consider their intellectual inferiors -- perhaps they need to look inward, rather than outward, for the cause of their disaffection.
Last edited by ontheroad; 11-16-2007 at 12:35 PM..
Reason: added end quote /
Depends totally upon how one defines "patriotism". If patriotism, in its simplest sense, implies a certain willingness to put "my country" above my own personal position (and sommetimes, above my own common sense), then it follows that, to some extent, patriotism requires a certain blind obedience....and like it or not, this quality is found more often among those who also accept a blind, unquestioning acceptance of religious principles...(i.e. the more fundamentalist types).
The intellectually-adventurous, "question authority" types, it seems to me, would be less willing to 'accept' any sort of blind obedience--whether to religion, fashion, or nation. To some extent, I think there's a conflict between "free thought" and patriotism.
It could be that my idea of patriotism differs from others'.....Can one be 'patriotic', yet totally disgusted by one's leadership? If so, what DOES this person use as the 'standard' by which his patriotism is measured? I suppose there are all sorts of opinions on this, but to me, the concept of patriotism implies a certain willingness to be 'arbitrary', and to follow one's country, 'right or wrong'.....something like a loyal sports fan who 'roots' for his team, even during a bad season. And I think this quality comes easier for religious fundamentalists than for liberal, agnostic, 'free-thinking' types..
Depends totally upon how one defines "patriotism". If patriotism, in its simplest sense, implies a certain willingness to put "my country" above my own personal position (and sommetimes, above my own common sense), then it follows that, to some extent, patriotism requires a certain blind obedience....and like it or not, this quality is found more often among those who also accept a blind, unquestioning acceptance of religious principles...(i.e. the more fundamentalist types).
The intellectually-adventurous, "question authority" types, it seems to me, would be less willing to 'accept' any sort of blind obedience--whether to religion, fashion, or nation. To some extent, I think there's a conflict between "free thought" and patriotism.
It could be that my idea of patriotism differs from others'.....Can one be 'patriotic', yet totally disgusted by one's leadership? If so, what DOES this person use as the 'standard' by which his patriotism is measured? I suppose there are all sorts of opinions on this, but to me, the concept of patriotism implies a certain willingness to be 'arbitrary', and to follow one's country, 'right or wrong'.....something like a loyal sports fan who 'roots' for his team, even during a bad season. And I think this quality comes easier for religious fundamentalists than for liberal, agnostic, 'free-thinking' types..
Interesting thinking.
Imho, one CAN be patriotic and yet totally disgusted with one's leadership in the case of America. The principles this country was foundationed on was revolutionary change. As matter of fact, Thomas Jefferson himself mentioned that if the American people want to keep the liberties the forefathers fought for, American needs to have a revolution roughly ever 30 years (Paraphrased but that's the gist of the idea). Being "patriotic", I thought, was standing up for what the country believed in. While in places like Burma/Myanmar, it may be defined as patriotic to be a sitting sheep, AMERICA was founded upon the principles of always questioning authority, defending rights, and not putting the 'leadership' on a pedstal.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Because of what the far right has done, many in the mainstream and left are now turned off by the flag, which no longer represents the USA but a right wing agenda in the minds of many.
Just a gentle reminder: if the left wing's faith in the country's symbols is so easily shaken -- especially by the opinions of those whom they consider their intellectual inferiors -- perhaps they need to look inward, rather than outward, for the cause of their disaffection.
Very well said Yeledaf.
Last edited by ontheroad; 11-16-2007 at 12:35 PM..
Reason: added quote / for readability
Imho, one CAN be patriotic and yet totally disgusted with one's leadership in the case of America. The principles this country was foundationed on was revolutionary change. As matter of fact, Thomas Jefferson himself mentioned that if the American people want to keep the liberties the forefathers fought for, American needs to have a revolution roughly ever 30 years (Paraphrased but that's the gist of the idea). Being "patriotic", I thought, was standing up for what the country believed in. While in places like Burma/Myanmar, it may be defined as patriotic to be a sitting sheep, AMERICA was founded upon the principles of always questioning authority, defending rights, and not putting the 'leadership' on a pedstal.
Lots of food for thought here---lots of irony too. Patriotism sounds a little bit like the ironies of a love affair---(i.e., "I'm not interested in someone who agrees with me all the time. I want a good, loud argument sometimes---but not TOO often")....Good post.
It is our Judæo-Christian moral heritage that shaped America's character, and the Christian faith tradition itself that is a vital component of American culture. Ours isn't a culture based on blood of ethnic ties, but on values and beliefs (and a common language and legal frameworks, but those are for another discussion...)
Anyway, from the Pilgrim Fathers on down to the Founders, the vast majority of people who laid the foundations of this country were professing, committed Christians. They also held a strong belief that God conceived and blessed the United States of America as a special country, born with a mission to bring the light of freedom and hope to all humanity. (see American Exceptionalism)
Today, conservative Christians still recognize that aspect of our national heritage, and celebrate it.
Secular-humanists, "progressives" and other 1960s-mentality types who hate Christianity and aren't too keen on American exceptionalism, continue doing everything they can do deny, denigrate and condemn our heritage. That includes disrespecting our flag and those who've bravely fought under it.
I consider myself to be a patriot. I love my country above all others. I love what our country was founded upon the ideals of freedom and justice for all.
My country does not equal its leadership. Waving a flag or using slogans never equates to patriotism.
Neither The Republicans nor the Dems in office seem to understand the concept of patriotic duty.
A patriot should look at every decision they make in office and ask these questions in this order.
1. Is this good for my country both long and short term?
2. Will this hurt our people?
3. Is this worth spilling our blood even one drop?
4. Can we justify this action/decision against the ideals of our constitution?
Always remember no where in the constitution does it call for americans to die for another countries needs. No where does it call for americans to sacrifice even 1 dime to improve anyone elses situation.
Our elected politicians don't seem to understand that they have been elected to represent the peoples best interests not their own. One is very seldom the same as the other. Lobbiests very seldom represent mainstream america.
Sweeping statements on either side contribute to the dissension between the two groups, and/or sub-groups.
I am a secular-humanist, if I need a label, and I don't hate Christians, Christianity, the flag, our country or our brave soliders. Neither do I denigrate or condemn the US heritage.
I also don't believe the religious right equates to patriotism. Patria is a subject that sends chills down my back because it closes off discussion rather than encourages it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative
Secular-humanists, "progressives" and other 1960s-mentality types who hate Christianity and aren't too keen on American exceptionalism, continue doing everything they can do deny, denigrate and condemn our heritage. That includes disrespecting our flag and those who've bravely fought under it.
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