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Only if you are thinking in terms of penny wise and dollar foolish. Some investments are worth the pennies. It sure costs the gov't much less money to make sure a person is safe, secure, healthy and educated then the cost of crime enforcement, legal preceding, and incarceration. Not to mention that productive citizens with good earning potential have the ability to pay higher taxes and contribute to the betterment of society in a more substantial way than someone working 3 jobs to get by.
No - I'm thinking what our constitution provides for, and it does not provide that the government owes you an income or a safety net.
Obviously, you and I are are on opposite ends here - you want a government that provides everything for our citizens - craddle to grave. You want a guaranteed income - I do not believe in that. You want government paid, universal health care - I do not. You want an absolute safety net concept - I do not. And so on.
You want more than the constitution provides for or envisioned.
No - I'm thinking what our constitution provides for, and it does not provide that the government owes you an income or a safety net.
Obviously, you and I are are on opposite ends here - you want a government that provides everything for our citizens - craddle to grave. You want a guaranteed income - I do not believe in that. You want government paid, universal health care - I do not. You want an absolute safety net concept - I do not. And so on.
You want more than the constitution provides for or envisioned.
I don't
I say, let's abide by the Constitution. If the socialists want to propose an amendment, let's see if it gets a supermajority. If not, put the issue to rest and follow the document for once in the past 150 years.
The constitutionality of social programs is debated (the interpretation of the "general welfare" part seems to depend on the ideological or philosophical bent of the interpreter)... it depends on whether you follow a Hamiltonian or Jefferson/Madison interpretation of what it means. The Supreme Court has taken the former side, so we have what we have now.
The constitutionality of social programs is debated (the interpretation of the "general welfare" part seems to depend on the ideological or philosophical bent of the interpreter)... it depends on whether you follow a Hamiltonian or Jefferson/Madison interpretation of what it means. The Supreme Court has taken the former side, so we have what we have now.
I suggest to you that the expansion - no, explosion, of the welfare system was never envisioned - and I would also suggest that a new case, put before a different court, might resort in a decision that liberals would not like.
IMO, the best, yet dangerous, way to settle this issue is to either A) propose a constitutional amendment providing for government welfare programs and payments or B) Call for a Constitutional Convention and open the entire constitution up for revision.
Most of the founding fathers didn't envision the freedoms & protections in the Bill of Rights applying to every citizen (full or partial?) in the country, either, yet now they do. Their vision wasn't exactly 20/20 on everything. However, their vision was good enough for them to know that what they passed down would need to be interpreted, and thus we have judicial review.
I heard something today that was awesome to finally hear someone saying it.
If each person would be personally responsible for themselves and be held accountable for themselves none of us would be discussing programs that feed of the successful people in this country. Each of these people have taken on the personal responsibility and have been accountable for themselves their for they owe the people who are not nothing at all.
For me, if you have nothing and wont are not willing to work 20 hours per day then you should be poor. Many people I know have put in 20 hour days and a NORMAL workday is at least 12 hours.
Heck you cannot get anyone to work 8 anymore, they dont want to work at night and don't want to work weekends and still want to be paid a fair wage?
Amazing.
Stop the redistribution of wealth bull and force people to be personally responsible for themselves. If they choose to be poor, that is their choice.
Absolutely NO reason other then REAL health issues someone should be poor in this country. It is not my job to pay for the laze bags amoung us for wont take on the same personal accountability that many of us others have.
Why are not the poor people forced to pick the apples, clean the floors, clean our highways, do our gardening and the jobs that people say no one else will do?
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Originally Posted by earthwar I don't know but I remember my Dad always saying, " the rich get richer and the poor get kids." With 13 children in the house and a stay at home Mom my Father had to work harder than an ordinary man. We were not rich nor poor. We had cloths, toys, nice house by a lake,good vehicles. He was talented at fabrication and made stuff on the weekends. We were never on any kind of assistance and I don't remember ever seeing him miss a day of work.
And how old are you?
I say that because of a very simple to understand reality.
A father can have a job as a middle manager with a job title called "widget overseer". He can save his money and after 5 years of vigilance, he is able to buy a 3 bedroom house, and take one two week vacation a year.
The father's children grow up. His son take the same job, at the same company. Yet not only can his kid not afford a house after 5 years in the same town but he can't afford a house at all.
In fact, if the father had to buy his own house today, he would be forced to move to a different neighborhood because even at his accelerated salary of a 20+ odd year employee, he could not afford to buy his own house, if he was starting without the compounded assets of home ownership.
The point of this example is to try to put forth, that times are different. The opportunities are not equal. Middle class opportunity has been steadily declining over the past 40 year period. If it is hard for the middle class, imagine how much harder with those not born into having the "right tools" for success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwar I have had my share of hard times which I think makes you stronger. I've seen some wealthy people lose everything that they had and they just can't handle it. They cry like babies, if they had rich parents and they always had money, then its gone, now what to do? Most people just don't apply themselves, and some want to spend their time doing nothing. I don't think the working man should be responsible for a man or woman capable of working for themselves. EW
I don't think hard times make people stronger. You either have the muster, or you don't. Being able to withstand it takes character, but I don't think it BUILDs character.
Being I have only a high school diploma, I'm not sure what you meant by some of your thoughts. My father was a mechanic and fabricator his whole life. His father was poor. But my father had talent, he invented many things in the roofing industry but would never patent anything himself. This ensured him of a job however because he was a good employee. I grew up, and while I also have talents for fabricating a severe injury to my back which required me to change professions and "start over" led me into a different profession as a warehouse worker and truck driver. I don't agree that times are that much different, it was harder to get a loan back then, now anyone can get one. Thats why so many lose their homes because they aren't being smart about what they can really afford. I bought a house I could fix up myself. I didn't remodel a house before but I wasn't afraid to try. Without having hard times you forget what it means to give up something. Once you've been there you don't want to go back. I have some nephews that don't really want to work. They say similar things like what you said but the truth is they haven't tasted what it means to gain something then keep it. I feel once they do this they won't want to go back to the way it was before. The truth is people aren't willing to start from the bottom and work their up. They start out with something good, maybe a loan from the bank, neglect to pay the loan back then you are in a hole. Thats what I see a lot of the youngsters doing these days. Ew
Most of the founding fathers didn't envision the freedoms & protections in the Bill of Rights applying to every citizen (full or partial?) in the country, either, yet now they do. Their vision wasn't exactly 20/20 on everything. However, their vision was good enough for them to know that what they passed down would need to be interpreted, and thus we have judicial review.
Absolutely not. Find judicial review in the Constitution...
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
You know, they could have written...
We the People of the United States, in Order to screw all the poor People, selfishly hog for Ourselves Everything we can lay our grubby Hands on, and generally assure that a Bunch of uncaring Have's can Lord it over a Bunch of lazy Have-Nots forever, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
It may be time to start thinking about calling for a Constitutional Convention
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