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[quote=briarwood;2383109]Popularity != Correct. During the 1920's, fascism was the "Wave of the Future". During the 1930's, it was believed the USSR offered a better way of life. Tell me, where are these two systems today. Who defeated them?
Instead of going back a century for philosophical tennis I prefer to just stay in the here and now and see what the actual evidence tells me. Such as the internal intelligence estimates that Iraq has increased the danger to Americans and done nothing to diminish Terror, despite the lives lost and dollars spent.
Wanting to stay in Iraq has less to do with weither it was right then the fact that we are there and have a moral obligation to finish what we start. Responsible nations amend their errors and complete their promises, to which we've made many to the people of Iraq.
I would say at this point whatever "moral" obligation we have has been paid. We surged so the Iraqis could get their political act together. The surge worked, they have chosen not to do this, and in fact have not met any of the political benchmarks laid out so the country can function. The majority of Iraqis in polls state that our mere presence is causing more problems than fixing anything, and 57% of Iraqis say it is "ok" to kill American troops. How long do you suggest we stay?
It's over and done with. Move on.
Most of the country is trying to do so, that is why we gave the Democrats majority rule in the last Congressional elections. Unfortunately looks like we will have to wait until Bush leaves office to make "moving on" possible. Until then, it is more "stay the course."
Like the CBC, BBC, et al never get ridiculous.
Whatever. Personally I find international news to be more informative and less slanted and sensational. The Mexican news is pretty good also.
Quote:
By truly loving your country you can admit issues where they exist. Sure Canada has issues too, but it is funny how American travellers around the globe now say they are Canadian to avoid being treated badly in other countries.[ /QUOTE]
And what does that say about other countires who choose to presecute a group of people for only their nationality? Maybe you people should stop preaching to us on how your so "tolerant".
I don't disagree. Kind of like those that say all Muslims are Evil Doers that want to kill all the infidels around the globe. Silly, isn't it.
Don't know who you mean by "you people", or what you mean by preaching "tolerance". Just saying let's open our eyes to what our own intelligence reports are telling us. If the Iraq invasion was supposed to make us safer, then by our own intelligence estimates this has been a failure. Where would you disagree?
Debateable. Most of the third-world nations we **** on all the time have shown more support for us than the Western world. How many Parisan or London firefighters offered their services for Ground Zero?
No idea about the Parisian firefighters. I was going by the international Pew Surveys taken at that time, as compared to recently. I do remember quite a few countries offering help after Katrina, but the administration turned them down. I guess we had everything under control. Although I do remember some Mexican Army troops that were allowed over to assist in the recovery and reconstruction efforts.
I would like to see a mass migration of the ultra left loons and dem libs to Canada's tundraland. Then we, as true Americans, could get busy putting our country aright without the neverending obfuscation these 25% cause. So make haste, get thee a new home for yourselves up there amongst the icebergs and grizzlies. Don't forget those scratchy, itchy long johns! Buh bye now....
Instead of going back a century for philosophical tennis I prefer to just stay in the here and now and see what the actual evidence tells me. Such as the internal intelligence estimates that Iraq has increased the danger to Americans and done nothing to diminish Terror, despite the lives lost and dollars spent.
The Original poster opened this up with an all-out blitz on American history (slavery, Indians, et al). Don't cry context when your more than willing to dig hundereds of years to prove your point.
Anyway, as far as the intelligence goes, how come when the "intelligence" said Iraq had WMDs, our CIA was "Stupid". Now that those very same people are singing a different tune, they're "geniuses". Please don't even try to pass yourself off as partial.
I would say at this point whatever "moral" obligation we have has been paid. We surged so the Iraqis could get their political act together. The surge worked, they have chosen not to do this, and in fact have not met any of the political benchmarks laid out so the country can function. The majority of Iraqis in polls state that our mere presence is causing more problems than fixing anything, and 57% of Iraqis say it is "ok" to kill American troops. How long do you suggest we stay?
Considering they still do not have a fully-functioning nation, I would say we have not paid our debt. As for the 57% poll, I choose to look at the reality on the ground that says were actually getting vast amounts of cooperation from local Imams and Shieks. That has to count for something. Coupled with the fact that US casualties have plummeted in correspondance with the surge, I'd say things are not nearly what you would like them to be.
The fact you hold this view is hypocritical in and of itself when it comes to things like slavery, indians, Hiroshima, et al, the Left just loves to dig up the word "obligations".
Most of the country is trying to do so, that is why we gave the Democrats majority rule in the last Congressional elections. Unfortunately looks like we will have to wait until Bush leaves office to make "moving on" possible. Until then, it is more "stay the course."
The Dems could have voted to cancel out funding. They failed. Maybe becuase they have an actual consience and realize what a horrorfying message sending troops in without food would be.
Whatever. Personally I find international news to be more informative and less slanted and sensational. The Mexican news is pretty good also.
Give me a example of such "sensationalism". Yes, I do credit the BBC with being far more comprehensive and international, but I fail to see where you get "sensational" from. It's not like the American media doesn't report the body count/bombings. I guess you want them to show a picture slide too.
No idea about the Parisian firefighters. I was going by the international Pew Surveys taken at that time, as compared to recently. I do remember quite a few countries offering help after Katrina, but the administration turned them down. I guess we had everything under control. Although I do remember some Mexican Army troops that were allowed over to assist in the recovery and reconstruction efforts.[/quote]
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics. Europeans never genuinley liked us. During the 1980s in Germany, East German soilders got more respect. Being an American wasn't popualr in 1960's France either. Face it, rather than focus on their own ghastly past (and it's quite ghastly), it's easier to use America as a punching bag. Most of those flower memorials outside US embassies were gone within a week.
As far as Katrina is concerned (nice way to divert, BTW), again, As I said before, it was those tiny third-world countries that lended the most help. It would be nice if we have given credit where credit is due. That I agree with you there.
I would like to see a mass migration of the ultra left loons and dem libs to Canada's tundraland. Then we, as true Americans, could get busy putting our country aright without the neverending obfuscation these 25% cause. So make haste, get thee a new home for yourselves up there amongst the icebergs and grizzlies. Don't forget those scratchy, itchy long johns! Buh bye now....
LOL. Typical, instead of a logical rebuttal you get wingnut drivel. The intel reports and actual facts are with the 75% of the majority of Americans that see things how they really are.
So, how about the 25% "obfuscators" follow our "obfuscating" Commander in Chief and his loonie cabinet over to Iraq to assist with the project of planting the gentle seeds of Freedom and Democracy and Judeo-Christian compassion in the barren terrain of the Islamic Desert.
LOL. Typical, instead of a logical rebuttal you get wingnut drivel. The intel reports and actual facts are with the 75% of the majority of Americans that see things how they really are.
So, how about the 25% "obfuscators" follow our "obfuscating" Commander in Chief and his loonie cabinet over to Iraq to assist with the project of planting the gentle seeds of Freedom and Democracy and Judeo-Christian compassion in the barren terrain of the Islamic Desert.
Y'all let us know how it goes.
75% of people being against the war does not equal 75% supporting the HateAmerica crowd. I knew the Iraq war was bull**** from the start, and I'm a Republican. Bush once had an approval rating of 90%, which all goes to show that people are fickle. Besides, you and your compadres love to post thread after thread castgating "Stupid Americans" and now all of the sudden they're so "enlightened"? Riiiight.
Thankfully, the vast majority of Americans are more intelligent and informed than you give them credit for than to be walking around with the "Bombs brought down the WTC" and "Mumia-Abu Jamal for president" tee-shirts.
The Original poster opened this up with an all-out blitz on American history (slavery, Indians, et al). Don't cry context when your more than willing to dig hundereds of years to prove your point.
Show me in any of my posts where I discussed slavery or Indians. Don't try to start connecting dots now. Let's focus on today and the global perception of Iraq occupation.
Anyway, as far as the intelligence goes, how come when the "intelligence" said Iraq had WMDs, our CIA was "Stupid". Now that those very same people are singing a different tune, they're "geniuses". Please don't even try to pass yourself off as partial.
The WMD was always being argued even within the intel community if you check it out. Even Colin Powell called the "proof" he was given to argue in front of the U.N. "BS". Some just wanted to beleive it more than others.
I am thinking the intel community was burned pretty badly by that episode and has learned to be more cautious. Which is why they stood up to the President's warmongering this time towards Iran.
Make sense?
Any other response or reaction to these intel reports, other than trying to change the subject??
Considering they still do not have a fully-functioning nation, I would say we have not paid our debt. As for the 57% poll, I choose to look at the reality on the ground that says were actually getting vast amounts of cooperation from local Imams and Shieks. That has to count for something. Coupled with the fact that US casualties have plummeted in correspondance with the surge, I'd say things are not nearly what you would like them to be.
Who said the violence has not dropped? So you want to stay until there is a fully functioning government. Any timetable on that? Or do we just wait forever for the Iraqis to play ball with each other? You do realize we can't keep the surge up past this year, I hope...
The fact you hold this view is hypocritical in and of itself when it comes to things like slavery, indians, Hiroshima, et al, the Left just loves to dig up the word "obligations".
Again, I never mentioned any slavery, Indians, or anything else. You want to go fight the OP about that, you be my guest. You are the one that keeps bringing up "obligations", not me. Nice try at muddying the waters, though.
The Dems could have voted to cancel out funding. They failed. Maybe becuase they have an actual consience and realize what a horrorfying message sending troops in without food would be.
You got that right. Exactly the reaction that would get. So again, we have to wait for the next President before things will change, even though most of America has had it with this occupation.
Give me a example of such "sensationalism". Yes, I do credit the BBC with being far more comprehensive and international, but I fail to see where you get "sensational" from. It's not like the American media doesn't report the body count/bombings. I guess you want them to show a picture slide too.
I was referring more to the daily tiger story, Paris Hilton, whenever a cute blonde disappears. This becomes the lead story on major news channels. They are more tabloid than informative. (That is all the news, not just Fox, so relax ...)
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics. Europeans never genuinley liked us. During the 1980s in Germany, East German soilders got more respect. Being an American wasn't popualr in 1960's France either. Face it, rather than focus on their own ghastly past (and it's quite ghastly), it's easier to use America as a punching bag. Most of those flower memorials outside US embassies were gone within a week.
As far as Katrina is concerned (nice way to divert, BTW), again, As I said before, it was those tiny third-world countries that lended the most help. It would be nice if we have given credit where credit is due. That I agree with you there.[/quote]
Oh I am sorry, I thought the topic you raised was aid from foreign nations to the US. My bad.
I am sorry you have had bad personal experiences in Europe. I personally have noticed a definite harsher attitude to the US in Europe in my travels since the Bush era. As you say, not entirely fair, but there you have it.
75% of people being against the war does not equal 75% supporting the HateAmerica crowd. I knew the Iraq war was bull**** from the start, and I'm a Republican. Bush once had an approval rating of 90%, which all goes to show that people are fickle. Besides, you and your compadres love to post thread after thread castgating "Stupid Americans" and now all of the sudden they're so "enlightened"? Riiiight.
Thankfully, the vast majority of Americans are more intelligent and informed than you give them credit for than to be walking around with the "Bombs brought down the WTC" and "Mumia-Abu Jamal for president" tee-shirts.
Exactly right! So maybe the remaining 25% faithfully marching on need to consider this. Could there be more to the 75% opposition than "America and Bush Hating" ? Could they maybe have a point?
And please just stop with bringing up "lefty wackos"... as if that constitutes anybody that questions the current "strategy" the President has in the Middel East. Old and tired wingnut kneejerk response.
The "right" has more than their share of freaks. Unlike you, I am willing to give most the benefit of the doubt.
I would like to see a mass migration of the ultra left loons and dem libs to Canada's tundraland. Then we, as true Americans, could get busy putting our country aright without the neverending obfuscation these 25% cause. So make haste, get thee a new home for yourselves up there amongst the icebergs and grizzlies. Don't forget those scratchy, itchy long johns! Buh bye now....
I have no doubt that you and those who share your bunker truly would like to see the rest of America disappear. But it isn't going to happen. If you ever do decide to come out and return to the sunlight and fresh air, you'll find that your fellow Americans aren't really the "enemy" you've been told they are. We're your neighbors. We're the firefighters, teachers, cooks, craftsmen, and businessmen who make your community and our nation function.
There's no need to be so frightened by a differing point of view. America's founding principle is freedom. And freedom leads inevitably to diversity of opinion. Yet you find that so terrifying that you don't want to live in the America that you and I grew up in. Strange... Are your "principles" so fragile that they can't survive some casual examination?
With the blatantly arrogant tone of some of these arguments, how can we Americans claim to be so great? Such childish bullying immediately eliminates us from the competition unless divisiveness is a quality of 'great' that escaped the dictionary. Is insulting a neighboring country also a trait?
I never understood why America is in competition with other countries. Are we in competition because of some human need for significance? Or is it because our corporate overlords would get better productivity out of us? Where's the prize for being 'great'? It certainly can't be the world we find ourselves in now.
America is not the greatest country on the planet because we haven't realized any component of greatness as I would define it. Greatness is not defined by the number of weapons, the height of buildings, or the level of luxury. It is not measured by the amount in a bank account, the amount that nature has been tamed, or how many others have bowed down before us.
A truly great country would not have homeless people and polluted rivers. It wouldn't employ violence as entertainment or a means to an end. It would embrace peace rather than glorify death and destruction. It would understand real freedom, not some facsimile. It would be inclusive, not exclusive. It would realize it's in the same boat with everyone else, not ignore the cries of those who find themselves in the icy waters.
America blindly asserts its greatness probably because it refuses to feel shame for and acknowledge its failures. It, like all the other countries, neighborhoods, families, and human beings, can only aspire to greatness by accepting the truth. Lashing out in defiance of the truth and in total arrogance doesn't change reality one bit. We have a ways to go before we can achieve true greatness. When realized, "countries" will have been rendered meaningless.
why do americans believe they are the greatest country in the world?. they dont even crack the top 15 in any kind of rating that matters. maybe its the 12000 murders a year. maybe its because the government sends young people to die to enforce the will of the corporations. maybe its the healthcare. you peolpe need to come out of your media induced coma and wake up because your country is in serious trouble. stop believing its your god given right to rule the world. ever think of why people attack you?. canada is very similar and no one attacks us. there is a whole side of the story that your not being told . its not religious fanatisism its that people in t
those countries don want to be occupied and exploited, can you blame them?
remember the british? when you drove them out what did you call yourselves? terrorists? insurgents?. remember one mans terrorist is another mans partriot. change your foreign policy this war on terror can never be won.
Don't be so quick to judge Americans. We are a "open and democratic" country with censored news and information coming in. People speak of universal health care and quickly the media moves to call it communist and socialist. They then move to show three "experts" who say Canada and UK are these wretched bureaucracies, where people die from not being seen by doctors. Never mind France or the many other countries who score higher on the World Health Organization as having the top health care systems AND they are universal in scope (i.e. France for example). People speak of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and the media rushes to show some Arab boy who blew himself up. They neglect to show the squaller and hopelessness these people live in nor, do they show the killings the Israelis do.
We are a extremely insular nation, and although the internet is FULL of information, people do not use it properly. People google information that reinforces what they have been told on tv and in news papers, they do not look for alternative angles to things. So, you want to understand America's problem, just look at it from the point of view I have just painted for you. Heck we as Americans hardly know or understand the different cultures and social issues our fellow Americans face, no less whats going on in Alberta Canada.
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America: no one's leaving...
