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This is why the line is hard. I don't think all businesses should be forced to do anything a customer asks. If a Muslim bakery doesn't want to write a Bible verse on a cake, they shouldn't have to. If an atheist photographer doesn't want to take pictures in a Baptist church, they shouldn't be forced to do that. Or a Mormon florist be forced to do wedding flowers for a FLDS polygamist wedding. etc. etc
If a black-owned print shop doesn't want to make up banners for the KKK, they should not have to do that. Or a white owned business forced to do something for the Black Panthers.
But any person who walks into a restaurant, bakery, etc, should be able to buy things on the shelf, order food off a menu, etc.
And that's why this is hard to legislate. Because where do you draw the line?
That's why I think you need to follow principles. If you don't, everything is just arbitrary, as you just said. My principle is that it's never okay to initiate force against someone else. If they aren't being violent, don't use violence against them. Once you allow violence against a peaceful person in one situation, the principle is gone. Then it's just dependent on what situations the majority decides are okay, which can be very dangerous and lead to tyranny.
Not sure if it got posted already, but here's a nice little tidbit for the hysterics to chew on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonah Goldberg
"This big gay freak-out is purely notional," according to legal writer Gabriel Malor (who is gay). "No RFRA has ever been used successfully to defend anti-gay discrimination, not in 20 years of RFRAs nationwide."
(emphasis mine)
That means it has never been used successfully, in 20 years, to do that which we are being told to expect happening constantly, daily, far and wide, all the time.
Yeah, I was already sold on this thing being a bunch of needless hysterics, but even I didn't know that no anti-gay discrimination has ever been successfully defended by an RFRA. That's a very funny fact missing from this theater of the absurd.
All I know is that unless it's a private membership club, if you can patronize it, I'd better be able to do the same. And I want the same treatment or BETTER than you're getting.
If that's infringing on a business owner's rights, then too darn bad. He needs to just shut the hell up and take the dollar. I'm not interested in his religion or his personal take on the issues of the day.
I guess I would rather spend my money somewhere that appreciated my business.
But it does cause one to question the aggregate level of intelligence that is responsible for voting these cretins into the Arkansas state legislature to begin with.
I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. Religion plays a big role in Arkansas. And that's because religion is a primary means of affiliation. From a sociology perspective, affiliation is a prevalent motivation in populations that are economically disadvantaged. We see that on the world stage, and we see it on the national stage as well. Arkansas for years has been one of the most impoverished states, so culturally religion plays a more significant role than it does in more prosperous states. And that plays out politically.
However, the state has a deep individualistic streak as well, which tends to balance the religious conservatism and is most often expressed as libertarianism politically.
Asa Hutchinson is pragmatic. He doesn't want to see the state become Indiana II, nor does he want to upset the business community.
How about don't discriminate in the sales of products or services you choose to offer to the public?
If you offer bible cakes, then you offer bible cakes to all.
If you offer wedding cakes then you offer wedding cakes to all.
If you offer flowers then you offer flowers to all.
If you offer catering then you offer catering to all.
If you offer printing, then you offer printing to all.
I would have no problem with any business owner telling a customer " I don't really agree with doing this service for you, but I will follow the law. I can recommend some someone else if you would like."
I'm willing to bet that most would not want them doing the service if they put it like that, and no laws would be broken so no legal recourse.
Walmart offers photo printing to all, but they are not forced to print nude pictures. Why not? Because there have always been exceptions to what businesses are forced to do.
When you are not talking about essential services, what exact public service does forcing businesses to serve everyone accomplish?
The only two that I can think of would be convenience and stopping feelings from being hurt.
What other reasons can you come up with?
You know, I've given this question you keep raising a lot of thought. I see where you are coming from. And I agree that in most places in the US these days that the nastier manifestations of discrimination are rare, and when they come to light, the perpetrators are pretty much shamed (not slammed - darn spell check) into oblivion.
I was 10 years old when I saw the footage of bull o'connor's dogs and water cannons. I've never forgotten that, or the spitting white people in boston, or many other manifestations of threatening and violent bigotry. It wasn't all that long ago, and I seriously doubt that we have reached the point where we can safely assume that it could never regress.
I think that in the end, just as it is government's basic job to defend the nation, it is also government's job to ensure that all citizens are free to participate in the public marketplace of goods and ideas.
This does not mean that everyone has to approve of everyone else. I have no intention of giving up my right to castigate people I disagree with, and I certainly expect castigation in return. What it does mean is that when I walk into a store, that a store owner who has religious objections to a feminist atheist should still treat me civilly and take my money. As I would do if the tables were turned, and a person who has called me witch and ***** in public walked into my store. In a big city, this is pretty much a non-issue - there is always someplace else - but in smaller towns, it is a very big issue indeed. But it seems to me that we have to have some basic standards of behavior toward each other, no matter how profound our differences are.
Not sure if it got posted already, but here's a nice little tidbit for the hysterics to chew on:
(emphasis mine)
That means it has never been used successfully, in 20 years, to do that which we are being told to expect happening constantly, daily, far and wide, all the time.
Yeah, I was already sold on this thing being a bunch of needless hysterics, but even I didn't know that no anti-gay discrimination has ever been successfully defended by an RFRA. That's a very funny fact missing from this theater of the absurd.
That's because, unlike Indiana, none of the other RFRAs explicitly allows for-profit businesses to assert a right to "the free exercise of religion." And in some of those states sexual orientation is a protection class. Furthermore, Louisiana and Pennsylvania explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.
So Goldberg and many others here are either too lazy to read the actual text of those laws or are intentionally lying when to say that Indiana's law is just like other RFRA's.
Which is it?
Last edited by Mr. Mon; 04-01-2015 at 11:04 AM..
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