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So I was in a college class all about software optimization at the assembly language level. about 28 students I think, 9 of them foreigners. We're a couple weeks in, and just past the point where you could quit the class and get a refund. One of the foreign students asked if the new topic was part of the standard curriculum. The teacher smiled. He informed us that every few terms he changed the last 2/3rds of the class and practical testing because he did not want people not learning by using someone elses work from a prior term.
7 of the foreigners, and 2-3 of the US looking folks were gone by the next class.
It was a hard class, and the most fun class I had at the college. So I suspect even these 20,000 H1-Bs are no assurance of competency even if they have managed to make it through college. Neither sadly is a degree. Theres too much cheating going on. People who can learn the test, but not the topic.
The 20,000 are given to those who have MS or PhD degrees only, not undergraduates.
Yes, there are still bad graduate students, but on average they are good students.
If I recall correctly, MS and amazon have rather high turnover, while google and Facebook typically treat their employees better. I don't know of anyone personally that got fired or gave up.
If the entire industry is so selective that only 350 out of 350k STEM graduates are worth keeling, I don't think bringing in H-1B workers helps much.
No more than 350 are worth keeping, you need fillers and people to cover, but you'll find that in most IT companies the number of people doing real innovation is incredibly small. Sure it looks big on the surface because there's a 100 man team on the project, but there's one or two guys who are pushing that innovation and without them the rest aren't going anywhere at all. Don't get me wrong either fillers and cover people are critically important too, and are also smart and motivated, but they're not your creative sparks and often will never be consistently creative sparks, but they can also have moments of inspiration.
If you need to filter 350k to get 350 per year, and you need 700 per year not 350 per year and if you don't have them, then you're screwed. Where are you going to get them? Two choices, do without and lose technological edge, or expand the candidacy outside US borders, and do the same.
I think young American students have one disadvantage: tuition loans.
In Europe and Asia, college is very affordable or even free. It is also a tradition for parents to fully cover the tuition. Therefore, those people have no debt and have more freedom to go to graduate school, or concentrate on learning in other ways. Social mobility in the US is actually quite hard, because where you live determines a lot of things.
You do realize that these days Americans are looking for work overseas because they can't find it here. One difference between Americans and those on H1-Bs --- the vast majority of those Americans will return home as soon as they can.
....
No we won't. We do live in the US and pay US taxes, but there is no way we(I) would ever return to the US and do full time work in the US ever again. I've met 100's if not 100's of people who do the same thing across different fields and different collars. We are all self employed and pay the higher taxes associated with that and our net is still higher than if we worked for some company in the US. To give you a materialistic comparison, I've gone from making payment on a Ford Explorer to owning a Lexus GX without any payments. There has been no Head Hunter that I or my subs that have even come close with their packages compared to what we pay for outright.
H-1Bs did not cause the pay rates to drop. Outsourcing started it and the sales pitches of US universities topped it off by creating a glut of quantity but not a glut of quality.
And BTW your attacks on immigrants is completely uncalled for. I and all my subs are the children of legal immigrants and we've done pretty well especially when our parents came to the US with nearly nothing.
And, you, gungir, want to hire visa workers over Americans.
If companies decide to set up shop in a country, then they should be hiring the locals. If Microsoft wants to hire Indians, then why don't the move their headquarters to Bangalore?
You evade the question. Do you not believe that "Charity starts at home"? I guess you have trouble understanding analogies. So, would you move strangers into your own home and feed, clothe and shelter them while your own family goes without? Yes or no? It's a simple question. However, I suspect that you are avoiding answering it because you well know what I'm getting at.
Yes, I do expect Americans to be hired ahead of visa workers. You, on the other hand, would gladly throw an American under the bus in favor of a visa worker.
Once again---If every experienced American citizen IT worker was fielding multiple job offers with great salaries and jobs were going begging, then, yes, bring in visa workers. Make the visa a non-immigrant one. If the economy tanks and Americans are going without work, then send the visa workers home.
Other countries work that way. Japan once had 50,000 Brazillian guest workers. Then the economy tanked and the guest workers got sent back to Brazil. Other countries look out for their workers. Yet you expect the USA to keep bringing visa workers and legal immigrants in no matter what.
Just please stop it already. You've more than made it plain that you have no loyalty to this country and don't care that experienced American citizen workers are going without work while visa workers hold down jobs.
You've never lost a job before so you don't understand what it is like to be unemployed. You've never had to look for IT work while encountering Indians who blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. Therefore, you have no empathy for those in this situation. May you never be in that situation. But try to imagine being in that position. Try to imagine being without work for so long that your skills have gone rusty and you don't have the funds to take courses because using the money for courses would mean not paying your mortgage or rent.
I get where you stand---and it is very sad and shameful. No need to keep repeating yourself.
No we won't. We do live in the US and pay US taxes, but there is no way we(I) would ever return to the US and do full time work in the US ever again. I've met 100's if not 100's of people who do the same thing across different fields and different collars. We are all self employed and pay the higher taxes associated with that and our net is still higher than if we worked for some company in the US. To give you a materialistic comparison, I've gone from making payment on a Ford Explorer to owning a Lexus GX without any payments. There has been no Head Hunter that I or my subs that have even come close with their packages compared to what we pay for outright.
H-1Bs did not cause the pay rates to drop. Outsourcing started it and the sales pitches of US universities topped it off by creating a glut of quantity but not a glut of quality.
And BTW your attacks on immigrants is completely uncalled for. I and all my subs are the children of legal immigrants and we've done pretty well especially when our parents came to the US with nearly nothing.
Calm down. How have I attacked immigrants? Oh, I see! You think that since I believe that Americans should be hired over H1-Bs is somehow an attack on immigrants. It is not. For example, I don't think a company in India should be hiring Americans over Indians.
Why are you so defensive? Did I ever accuse you of not paying taxes? Why do you feel you have to mention your material items? That's rather crass.
I assume that your family is from Belarus? You say "No we won't. We do live in the US and pay US taxes but there is no way we (I) would ever return to the US and do full time work in the US ever again."
Show me a link to back up your assertion that the majority of Americans who decide to work abroad never return to this country. Just because you wouldn't return to the US (why are you even here when you say you wouldn't return? ) doesn't mean that other Americans are like you.
I have to wonder--- you attack me because I believe that Americans come first. Just like Indians come first in their country, Japanese come first in their country and on and on. Would you attack people in other countries who believe ---rightly so --- that their citizens come first?
Once again---If every experienced American citizen IT worker was fielding multiple job offers with great salaries and jobs were going begging, then, yes, bring in visa workers. Make the visa a non-immigrant one. If the economy tanks and Americans are going without work, then send the visa workers home.
Things are not that simple. No two candidates have exactly the same qualifications. Among 10 candidates, maybe 6 can basically fill the position, but the employer always wants the best one even if the other 5 are not bad. It's not like hiring a cashier and most people perform on the same level.
Other things being equal, most employers prefer young people for tech positions too, because they have more energy and lower expectations on benefits. Often times IT workers need to work after hours.
The H1-B visa is valid for 3 years and can be extended for another 3 years. Almost all of the H1B workers bring their spouse and kids here. Some have new kids in the US, and they are US citizens by law. Others may get married with US citizens.
After they work for 6, 7 years here in the US, they lost their connections in their home country and make connections here. Their children cannot survive in schools back home and speak English only. They already spent $800k on their house. Their company may not want to them to leave because they know everything there....
Last edited by Bettafish; 04-16-2015 at 11:59 PM..
Some of you just don't get it. Americans come first and we should be looking out for our people and seeing that they don't go jobless because someone wants to hire visa workers.
I would expect other countries to look out for their own citizens first and foremost, too. Why do you think other countries have strict laws as to who is allowed to immigrate? It's to protect their own citizens. Yet some people in this thread think that we should throw our own citizens under the bus. They have no compassion for Americans who were laid off and replaced by H1-Bs, even going as far as disparaging those Americans by saying they somehow deserved to be replaced with H1-Bs.
For the last time, I will repeat my stance---if every experienced American citizen IT worker was fielding multiple offers with great salaries and jobs were going begging, then bring in visa workers under a visa program that does not have a path to a green card. That way, if the economy tanks, the visa workers can be sent home. Make sure this program has proper oversight with no loopholes to exploit. Scrap the whole H1-B visa program and replace it with something that isn't riddled with fraud and corruption.
One poster decided that since I support American citizens, it somehow translates to attacking immigrants. It does not by any stretch of the imagination. We simply can not continue to allow 1 million legal immigrants per year in annually if we want to protect our natural resources. We are a very generous country when it comes to immigration but we can't take in the entire world. Just look at India---it has over 1 billion people and not enough potable water for them all. I don't want that kind of future for my descendants.
And, you, gungir, want to hire visa workers over Americans.
No I want to hire the best candidate for the position without regard for nationality, because when I was hiring nationality wasn't a requirement. If the US was signing the paycheck (which would never happen), AND nationality was a requirement, then I'd pay attention to the nationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
If companies decide to set up shop in a country, then they should be hiring the locals. If Microsoft wants to hire Indians, then why don't the move their headquarters to Bangalore?
I've already warned of that distinct possibility, the big software corps don't need the US, the US needs the big software corps. It's literally a blip on the balance sheet, and perhaps 80% of the US work force would be downsized. Do you have any concept of the effect that would have?
Here's a fact, one campus in India could be built using $10B including a 2GW power plant. That's 10% of Microsoft's current cash reserves (i.e. the cash holdings and instruments they have). They pay $22B in corporate taxes. Now imagine you're India's government, that Microsoft says, hey, we're thinking of relocating our corp HQ here, but we want to be able to recruit globally, and we want a 1 year deferment before paying taxes. Do you think India would refuse that offer? If they don't refuse the offer Microsoft would earn $12B just in not paying taxes the year that they moved, and still have a corp campus in India with a 2GW power plant, and still have all their US Facilities that could be leased or sold for further profits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You evade the question. Do you not believe that "Charity starts at home"? I guess you have trouble understanding analogies. So, would you move strangers into your own home and feed, clothe and shelter them while your own family goes without? Yes or no? It's a simple question. However, I suspect that you are avoiding answering it because you well know what I'm getting at.
I don't evade the question, the question has no relevance. It's like asking what car I drive, or whether or not I prefer Starbucks, or Peets. The analogy fails because if you're referring to H-1B's they're going to be hired by me come into my home and perform gainful work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Yes, I do expect Americans to be hired ahead of visa workers. You, on the other hand, would gladly throw an American under the bus in favor of a visa worker.
If the visa worker is better sure. I owe that American worker nothing, and would expect the same treatment if the situation was reversed, in fact if I learned that I was hired over someone else purely because because I was American, and they were not, I'd be so p!ssed I'd probably end up getting fired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Once again---If every experienced American citizen IT worker was fielding multiple job offers with great salaries and jobs were going begging, then, yes, bring in visa workers. Make the visa a non-immigrant one. If the economy tanks and Americans are going without work, then send the visa workers home.
Other countries work that way. Japan once had 50,000 Brazillian guest workers. Then the economy tanked and the guest workers got sent back to Brazil. Other countries look out for their workers. Yet you expect the USA to keep bringing visa workers and legal immigrants in no matter what.
You're talking about the 2009 financial crisis? They didn't ship Brazilians out, they offered a $3000 stipend for airfare (plus $2000 for each dependent) back to Brazil, but it was an offer, not a requirement. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/bu...rant.html?_r=0
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Just please stop it already. You've more than made it plain that you have no loyalty to this country and don't care that experienced American citizen workers are going without work while visa workers hold down jobs.
No I don't care that "experienced Americans workers" are going without work if they're not as capable as someone who has a visa that is more capable. It's about capability not nationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You've never lost a job before so you don't understand what it is like to be unemployed. You've never had to look for IT work while encountering Indians who blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. Therefore, you have no empathy for those in this situation. May you never be in that situation. But try to imagine being in that position. Try to imagine being without work for so long that your skills have gone rusty and you don't have the funds to take courses because using the money for courses would mean not paying your mortgage or rent.
Darlin' I've lost an entire business, not only my job, but the jobs of good people I hired to work for me in good faith, who I made commitments to, who I cared about their careers, and prospects, and families. It was an intense learning experience, but you know what, the day after I picked myself back up (with a ***** of a hangover) and was working again within 48 hours at the height of the dotcom bust.
I have little empathy and even less sympathy for some parasitic failure who's crying into their beer blaming "cheap" immigrants for beating them to the punch, when those immigrants aren't cheaper, just better and more capable. Even if it's true, you know what that means, you don't cry in your beer, you go and try harder. Are you telling me that some super able go getter American is a quitter? That they want to handicap their competitors? That they can't compete in the job marketplace with someone from India? How the mighty have fallen eh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
I get where you stand---and it is very sad
and shameful. No need to keep repeating yourself.
I'm not ashamed of where I stand, I'm consistent, I apply the same values to all regardless of where they come from, I remain constant in my responsibilities. I don't expect a company or government to cut me a break just because I'm an American. I'm responsible for being the best candidate on offer. I'm responsible for at an interview to make them hire me at the rates I expect even if they have to go to their manager, Senior manager, VP or CEO and tell them they need me, and they'll need to give me the rates I expect, or even invent a position for me if the one they're hiring for isn't a good enough fit for my skills. If I don't well then the only person who's responsible for that is me.
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) doesn't mean that other Americans are like you. 
