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The difference is moving beyond the statement and droning on and on negatively about the opposite gender to the point of forming a group and seeking validation.
If you don't need a woman to be happy and fulfilled YOU GO BOY. But why the need to broadcast it and and continue to make negative comments about women as a whole.
Therein ^^lays the question that keeps nagging at me, and is yet to be answered, though its been asked, a bunch. The OP brings this "movement" to the discussion table, which is not a new thing, but stating nobody "gets it". Well, most of us seem to understand the concept of individual ,living, concentrating ones efforts to other things, besides relationships with the opposite sex, and not putting sex at the top of our priority list, if on the list at all. So far so good.
I got lost, at the part about masturbation and porn, as being more desirable than being with a woman, and the statements about how gross women are, the mere thought of a womans scent, especially during sex, causing a gag reflex, and and all the other commentary as to how nasty male/female contact is, with the blame for said nastiness, being put on women, because they are so inherently nasty. Yuck, ick, poo poo, cakaca. That goes way beyond just putting off relationships to co center on oneself, into "I hate women, because they are disgusting". Yet, watching porn is a turn on? The thought of a woman's scent triggers a gag, but such a visual, turns the crank?
I don't quite understand that. However, a lot of porn portrays very dominating men, commanding women to do various things, wallering them about like sacks of grain. Its a very prevalent genre. There's a possible explanation to why porn is preferable for a guy with an outlook such as in the OPs writings, contained in what genre of porn is so preferable to actually being with a woman. I'll let that hang , for now.
The OP seems to have a genuine disgust for women, as a whole, though its stated otherwise, it's hard not to draw that conclusion. Its this apparent disgust that confused me. Its one thing to shy away from commitment, with a WO.an, based on not wanting to share ones life and time, but quite another to do so because one finds women disgusting. I reserve such disgust for the lower levels of vermin. Rats, mice, cockroaches, flies and such. Things the OP finds easier to be around than a woman. THAT raises my brows.
I can't, in my wildest and darkest mind, fathom seeing my lady like that. Or women, in general. I have known a couple women that do disgust me, but that's because of the type of person they are, not because they are female. Yea, I can't wrap my brain around this. Guess I'm just one of those who doesn't "get it".
Wow, I read all of that in Ron Swanson's voice. Good job.
Anyway, the problem with your "outburst" is that all the societal rules you are talking about only applied to the top tier, wealthy members of society. As for the rest of America, those women almost always worked. If a woman was lucky and had some education, she could become a teacher or nurse. If not, she became a domestic (housekeeper/cook/servant), a seamstress, took washing or ironing in to her home, maybe got a factory job, or cared for the children of other women who had to work outside the home. My own grandmother (born in 1900) worked as a home economics teacher for decades while raising a family and taking care of a home, while her husband also worked as an engineer. There was no shame, and two income homes are nothing new for the middle class and below.
As for the whole "wife's obligation" rigmarole, that was because women and children were considered weak and vulnerable, and needed a man to direct their life choices - because women could not possibly be able to make their own choices in life - they were too stupid and uneducated to do so. That's what happens when girls are not educated and choices are always made for them, they become dependent on men. And men did indeed consider their wives property - which is why they could tell them what they were and were not allowed to do. A woman could not leave her house if her husband forbade her, could not have a bank account without her husbands permission, could not even sign legal forms on her own if she was married - sure sounds like property to me. Your idea of "obedience" sounds awfully similar to slavery - you know, where people owned other people because those people could never be counted on to make decisions about their own lives; they were considered to ignorant, uneducated, and foolhardy to do so.
Can we please stop this ridiculous pining for the "good old days" when, apparently, men lived in a golden age of easy dating until marriage and subservient wives? Because if that's what you really want, an uneducated women who will do exactly as you say and ONLY exactly as you say, the real problem is YOU.
And therein lies the great attraction for a particular religion that shall remain nameless. One dominated by males who desire dependant chattels rather than full partners.
Therein ^^lays the question that keeps nagging at me, and is yet to be answered, though its been asked, a bunch. The OP brings this "movement" to the discussion table, which is not a new thing, but stating nobody "gets it". Well, most of us seem to understand the concept of individual ,living, concentrating ones efforts to other things, besides relationships with the opposite sex, and not putting sex at the top of our priority list, if on the list at all. So far so good.
I got lost, at the part about masturbation and porn, as being more desirable than being with a woman, and the statements about how gross women are, the mere thought of a womans scent, especially during sex, causing a gag reflex, and and all the other commentary as to how nasty male/female contact is, with the blame for said nastiness, being put on women, because they are so inherently nasty. Yuck, ick, poo poo, cakaca. That goes way beyond just putting off relationships to co center on oneself, into "I hate women, because they are disgusting". Yet, watching porn is a turn on? The thought of a woman's scent triggers a gag, but such a visual, turns the crank?
I don't quite understand that. However, a lot of porn portrays very dominating men, commanding women to do various things, wallering them about like sacks of grain. Its a very prevalent genre. There's a possible explanation to why porn is preferable for a guy with an outlook such as in the OPs writings, contained in what genre of porn is so preferable to actually being with a woman. I'll let that hang , for now.
The OP seems to have a genuine disgust for women, as a whole, though its stated otherwise, it's hard not to draw that conclusion. Its this apparent disgust that confused me. Its one thing to shy away from commitment, with a WO.an, based on not wanting to share ones life and time, but quite another to do so because one finds women disgusting. I reserve such disgust for the lower levels of vermin. Rats, mice, cockroaches, flies and such. Things the OP finds easier to be around than a woman. THAT raises my brows.
I can't, in my wildest and darkest mind, fathom seeing my lady like that. Or women, in general. I have known a couple women that do disgust me, but that's because of the type of person they are, not because they are female. Yea, I can't wrap my brain around this. Guess I'm just one of those who doesn't "get it".
Yeah; but you're not a candidate for extensive therapy either. You get the difference between desiring a simpering helpless dependent and having a partner you can rely upon to be there through the thick and thin times. Just knowing there is someone who will instinctively know how to lend support or critical analysis when needed is worth more to you than the unfettered freedom to go skydiving or pub crawling whenever.
But your reasons are a lot different from the op... I think everyone who decides to pursue this lifestyle won't pursue it for the same reasons. Some pursue it because they feel like the op in his first post-why bother through the drama of these romantic conventions when it offers little benefit for the man(at least that is the perception about this from a man with this sentiment, I'm sure other men see benefit). These particular men like being bachelors with little obligation and responsibility and with the hook up culture and women sexual liberation a lot of men don't have to get in a relationship or spend a dime and they still get sex. They don't care about love, and don't particularly want children-so they engage in this lifestyle. Others might pursue this lifestyle because they have some limitation that has made it difficult to have a romantic relationship and being single becomes their way of life, and then there are those that like you would love to have a relationship with the right woman but has not found her. I don't consider men like you to be like the op though. You aren't saying "f" relationships, romance, and expectations for how I should conduct myself with the opposite sex. You aren't rejecting society's expectation that you marry, and have children and become a family man. You aren't rejecting women and sex. Your standards are not abnormal-you seem traditional and like you actually wouldn't mind a traditional courtship followed by a traditional long marriage where you had a family and pursued the role of a man, husband and father based of course on how the framework established in our current society. Your only problem is that you have trouble dating-but you admit you are lonely and would want a relationship. The op is fine without a relationship and is asexual(whether he acknowledges that or not).
The op also doesn't seem to be pursuing this solely because he rejects these conventions but he seems to reject women altogether and I suspect that his neutrality to women, sex, and intimacy is the real reason he might be doing this. Not to say that he also isn't doing this because he sees little benefit, because I believe that is true as well, but arguably the reason he may see little benefit is because of his feelings about the opposite sex to begin with. If someone is genuinely turned off by the opposite sex, then of course having that intimacy will not be of benefit at all.
As someone pointed out there seems to be different subgroups of men who pursue this-the ones that hate women, the ones that are awkward and can't get women, the men that are in high demand and like being bachelors, and so on. But I don't think that every single man that presently can't be in a relationship(like yourself for instance are in this movement.
I do think that in my generation there are more men that are not as concerned with marriage and becoming parents compared to previous generations. Most people my age(28) that I've worked with or know pretty well plan to marry, and this includes men. A lot are already married, in ltr, engaged, or dating with intention on eventually settling down. I think men like the op still make up the minority when it comes to this. Perhaps that's why he created this thread-seeking validation and support from likeminded men. But where he lost a lot of people is on the topic of sex and the opposite sex.
Sometimes, I feel like I'm already there, just not officially. I can understand men who don't want to get wrapped up in the histrionics of things like: child support, divorce, other drama. I can get that. The whole mysogyny is another matter. I'm not into that. The lack of desire for intimacy is something I find off putting. The rejection of women altogether is something I'm not seeking. Truth is, while I haven't been in a romantic relationship, there are things I can appreciate.
At this point in my life, I don't know where I see myself in the next 10 years. I don't see myself having children in the near future. I don't know where my dating life, or lack there of will go. For now I just have alot of freedom. I'm not in the condition to have a girlfriend. I like the freedom that I have.
This is how I feel about my standards. When I was younger, I never thought about those standards. I found myself varying between being desperate to a girlfriend to not caring at all. The older I get, the more my view of the world changes. Certain things I would have let slide at age 18, I won't put up with now. I have been told me I should lower my standards if I want a girlfriend.
Hearing some of the stories of men being fleeced for child support, men going to prison over child support, children raised without fathers, cases where fathers get dragged into court battles over child custody, etc, it is discouraging. This makes me more careful about whom I would choose.
Being someone who has had trouble in dating, as someone who has felt unwanted at times, it is tempting to go with the MGTOW thing. On the other hand, I see alot of angry people in the MGTOW.
To say that I am against women, that would be a lie. I'm one of the first people to say that a good woman can be wonderful. The love, the affection, I don't consider it overrated. I'm doing my own thing right now, but as you have said, I'm not discarding women.
And therein lies the great attraction for a particular religion that shall remain nameless. One dominated by males who desire dependant chattels rather than full partners.
I disagree. The types of men I've seen attracted to MGTOW, are often atheists. I have not met many Christian men who are into it. In fact, most Christian men I've men do not have an anti-woman stance.
Woman: I don't need a man to be happy and fulfilled as a woman.
Reaction: YOU GO GIRL!
Man: I don't need a woman to be happy and fulfilled as a man.
Reaction: Yeah, big loss for women their! You're just made cause you got dumped! You have issues etc
If that woman who said "I don't need a man to be happy and fulfilled as a woman," posted intimate details of her neurosis on a public forum, ad nauseam, you can bet no one would be applauding her. And, you do, indeed, have issues. Big - HUGE - ones. Get some help.
I didn't get any negative vibe from your post at all towards women in general or a particular descriptor of them either.
I completely understand what it is you're saying. People choosing to remain single is not a new thing at all. Some people are completely fulfilled without the requirement of a long term companion. That is not new, nor is it unique or disturbing in any way.
People deserve and have the inalienable right to craft their life to their parameters.
The O/P on the other hand comes across with some very obvious pent-up angst towards the female of our species that causes one to wonder where all of this "baby factory" and "ATM" nonsense originated from in his rather brief time as an adult would normally not allow.
I've known men who were born into an absolutely dysfunctional family environment coupled with an education in a school system where verbally demeaning the slower or independent thinking students by authoritarian female teachers was standard practice who somehow had not developed the hatred for women the O/P tried to disguise but nevertheless conveyed very graphically.
In short; some female or another must have really pizzed in his corn flakes, wounding his delicate sensibilities. He should get a pet cat.
And that was the point. The MGTOW movement might be tempting to someone like me. I've struck out when it comes to dating, and much of the time, I'm not in a condition to date. I also love the current freedom that I have. On the other hand, so many people I see this movement attracting are those who are angry people.
I don't agree with the OP's stance regarding romance being "over rated". Men wanting to have certain laws changed is one thing. Discarding all women is not the best way to go about it.
Yeah; but you're not a candidate for extensive therapy either. You get the difference between desiring a simpering helpless dependent and having a partner you can rely upon to be there through the thick and thin times. Just knowing there is someone who will instinctively know how to lend support or critical analysis when needed is worth more to you than the unfettered freedom to go skydiving or pub crawling whenever.
Mmmm, yes, I believe most folks here, men and women, understand the difference a true partner in life and a parasite. My ex was such a parasite, now, she's someone else's problem. That's the type of woman who could put someone into this MGTOW thing. Thinking about what she put me through, tells me just what a gift, a miracle really, the lady I'm with now is.
Still,had I gone down such a road, it wouldn't have been because women, in general, disgust me. I wasn't ever in any danger of looking at women like rank vermin, gagging at the mere thought of having physical ;contact with a woman, or at the thought of how a woman smells. Yet, the visuals supplied by porn have the opposite effect? The things they do on porn video , I would think, would trigger that reaction ,in spades, being already predisposed to be sickened by the simple thought of human sex.
That whole bit tells me something is , dangerously, crossed up in the wiring. J see a potential for violence in such an outlook. I am curious , as to what type of porn it is , that can arouse someone who is so disgusted by even the thought of contact with the opposite sex.
The OP's post about a "movement" is kind of funny. I wonder if he realizes that he is being a hypocrite in following this?
I say that as needing to join and promote a "movement" that is about a label while making a generalization about what not to be is hysterical when you consider that the "movement" in question is all about about rejecting labels, generalizations, and need for approval for living one's life.
It is like a person who says they only but "X" product because it is from a non-commercial company.
OP - I think you've been suckered. My advice? Drop the need for a movement and just lead your life the way you want. You'll be happier without needing to follow some artificial guidelines of what that means while seeking approval on a message board.
The OP's post about a "movement" is kind of funny. I wonder if he realizes that he is being a hypocrite in following this?
I say that as needing to join and promote a "movement" that is about a label while making a generalization about what not to be is hysterical when you consider that the "movement" in question is all about about rejecting labels, generalizations, and need for approval for living one's life.
It is like a person who says they only but "X" product because it is from a non-commercial company.
OP - I think you've been suckered. My advice? Drop the need for a movement and just lead your life the way you want. You'll be happier without needing to follow some artificial guidelines of what that means while seeking approval on a message board.
Narcissism requires fellow travellers to provide adulation and support. The O/P is not all about doing his own thing; he's all about justifying an aberrant behavioral pattern by seeking out a like minded members club. He went looking for them, not the other way around.
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THAT raises my brows. 
That's the type of woman who could put someone into this MGTOW thing. Thinking about what she put me through, tells me just what a gift, a miracle really, the lady I'm with now is. 
