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So the only women murdered in Muslim countries are the result of honor killings?
I remember reading a news story about a stoning in Iran about a decade ago. To paraphrase it said something like this in regard to stoning:
"Men in Iran are buried up to their waste and if they can get out they are allowed to live. Women are buried deeper."
My friend and I had a like WTF moment but we laughed about the absurdity of it for a long time.
According to the OP's own figures ("only" 30 honor killings of females per year in Jordan) a woman in that country is almost as likely to be murdered in an "honor killing" as is a female in the U. S. under any circumstances. According to the FBI, in 2014 about 22% of murder victims were female, for a total of about 3,191 (the OP's figures are way wrong, the FBI did not break down how many were murdered by intimate partners). That yields an overall female homicide victim rate of about 2/100,000 in the U. S. and an honor killing rate of about 1.3 per 100,000 females in Jordan. The latter figure does not include any other female murder victims, and as someone else pointed out, the likely true figure is much higher. And Jordan is one of the more enlightened of the Muslim countries.
That is alarming. Why was it a no-go zone for police? The people weren't armed. Why would the police abandon a community and leave it to its own devices?
What I don't understand is why this is a widespread problem in Europe. In the US, there are communities of middle-eastern and north African men and families. I used to live in one. There are no problems associated with them, not even a hint of a bad attitude towards women. In fact, the people tend to be afraid that the mainstream society might turn against them. And this was even before 9/11. It would be interesting to do a sociological study of these communities in Europe and the US, comparing them, to see if some clue might turn up as to why there is such a radical difference. Perhaps, in part, it has something to do with the fact that in the US, the immigrants live in neighborhoods among ordinary Americans, rather than warehoused in large apartment blocks clustered together and somewhat set apart from the rest of society? I think the reasons for it must be complex.
The difference is that the US assimilate people and those who don't are shunned, Americans are patriotic.
European countries have old cultures, language and different customs to which you can hardly adapt, add to this that most leftists consider "assimilation" to be something fascist and that being a patriot equals being a nazi and you can understand a few things.
Secondly, the US is immense, Europe is small and we absorbed over 1 million of supposed refugees ( why they are refugees if they escape from Turkey which is safe is still a mystery nobody has explained) and they are mostly a bunch of illiterate, unqualified and unskilled workers whose "integration" (if ever happens) will cost millions and millions.
Add to this that they are mostly Muslim, which makes them even harder to integrate, add to this that most of them are welfare leeches (otherwise why all want to go specifically to Sweden and Germany?) whose only desire is to get as much money as they can get and you can get an idea.
To this add the pervasive political correctness that label everybody as "racist" (just remember the other thread about this event) and you can understand why this situation won't end well.
About the topic, the city of Cologne has made a "code of behaviour" for women.
A small extract translated from German: "The new safety package envisages also the introduction of a behaviour code that women should observe. It will soon be made available on the internet and it will exhort them to keep "a safety distance from foreign-looking people, not to walk alone, but always in group, to call for help to bystanders in case of troubles, to immediately inform the police if they notice any suspect person and not to act in public with behaviours that might be misunderstood by people of 'other cultures'."
I won't even comment about that and let all you people draw your conclusion from that.
Well, I can speak for myself only, but there is a reason I bring it up over and over again. It is because there has been a growing belief in the US that if we could just keep the Muslims out of our country, we'd be safer. Now, I have to admit that I am not a trained historian, but I've studied countries that were wreaked by sectarian violence, and universally this sort of rhetoric and "othering" was always used to justify the initial outburst of violence. That isn't really the sort of country I want to live in, so it alarms me. Second, I don't believe that isolating and marginalizing people based solely on their religion serves to make us safer. I'd sooner see us judge individuals on their own words and actions, rather than what we assume they think and believe. Third, sometimes it does seem as though people here are trying to make the claim that victims of thuggery or violence are not equal. It sounds to me like Old Guard was saying (and Old Guard, maybe this isn't fair) that the victims of the thugs in Cologne are somehow more deserving of our sympathy than the victims of the mob I witnessed in Moscow because the thugs in Cologne were not locals, but the thugs in Moscow likely were (and this is making HUGE assumptions based solely on the color of skin of the thugs). In my mind, who the thug is does not change the degree of pain that a victim feels or make one more or less guilty.
In the end, profiling or stereotyping people neither makes us safer nor leads to a greater understanding of the issues we are dealing with. I prefer to judge people on their actions.
Americans want immigrants who will assimilate. The "othering" you mention is done by immigrants that refuse to assimilate. Their failure to assimilate is deliberate.
As for stereotyping... perhaps it would help if immigrants didn't refer to us as "infidels", etc while they walk their first steps on our soil.
We, as Americans, have been more than generous, as have the Europeans. But we have learned that constantly giving the benefit of the doubt frequently results in absolutely savage behavior from immigrants. Not all of them, but enough to make a clear statement. It's been a long, bitter lesson and frankly most Americans have had it.
Americans want immigrants who will assimilate. The "othering" you mention is done by immigrants that refuse to assimilate. Their failure to assimilate is deliberate.
As for stereotyping... perhaps it would help if immigrants didn't refer to us as "infidels", etc while they walk their first steps on our soil.
We, as Americans, have been more than generous, as have the Europeans. But we have learned that constantly giving the benefit of the doubt frequently results in absolutely savage behavior from immigrants. Not all of them, but enough to make a clear statement. It's been a long, bitter lesson and frankly most Americans have had it.
We have? I don't personally know any Americans who have had it, or who even see this as a major threat. What "long, bitter lesson"? You must be aware that Muslims have been living peaceably in the US for generations, right? Who refers to Americans as "infidels, etc. while they walk their first steps on our soil"?
And what's wrong with not assimilating? Do you have any idea how many Russians, since the Revolution and the World Wars, and how many east Asians, since they were imported in the 1880's as cheap labor, didn't assimilate, yet presented no problem to American society? Some of those communities now are big tourist attractions, to Americans and foreigners alike. In fact, the US government for awhile had laws preventing Asians from assimilating, ghettoizing them economically and geographically.
You're trying to spout your personal opinion as fact. You don't speak for all Americans, nor do you have a handle on US history or contemporary reality in this regard.
That's the whole point of his post. The fact that the perps are Christians is considered so insignificant that it fades into the background. But "Christians" are certainly capable of terrible crimes. Remember, the KKK are/were avowed Christians.
You've missed my point. Regarding the Puerto Rico parade assaults, NO ONE -- not the perpetrators, not the victims, not witnesses, not the police, not nobody -- is claiming that the assailants are Christian. The fact that they come from a land with a Christian presence does not in any mean that they themselves are Christian or identify as such.
However, EVERYONE (with the glaring exceptions of the PC-cowed politicians and media) are calling the perpetrators of the Cologne assaults Muslims. And I would bet you money that the perpetrators themselves, if asked, would proudly identify themselves as Muslim.
And what's wrong with not assimilating? Do you have any idea how many Russians, since the Revolution and the World Wars, and how many east Asians, since they were imported in the 1880's as cheap labor, didn't assimilate, yet presented no problem to American society? Some of those communities now are big tourist attractions, to Americans and foreigners alike. In fact, the US government for awhile had laws preventing Asians from assimilating, ghettoizing them economically and geographically.
What's wrong with not assimilating is that you get Balkanization as a result.
As for the East Asians, the great majority of second-generation Asians speak fluent English and, aside from food tastes and celebrating certain Oriental holidays, are culturally indistinguishable from any other American. However, there are hordes and hordes of second-generation Middle Eastern and North African Muslims who are "European" in name only, and are culturally more like the people of their homelands even than their parents are.
I suspect that you are comparing apples and oranges here.
The National Forensic Medicine Center recorded 120 murdered women in Jordan in 2006, with 18 cases classified officially as crimes of honor. When you run the numbers, the rates are remarkably similar.
Furthermore, the BBC stated that many honor killings in Jordan go unreported so the Jordanian rate could be higher.
In 2008 the female population of Jordan was approximately 2,950,000, so 120 murdered women yields a murder rate of 4.1/100,000 females. This was close to the overall murder rate for both sexes in that year in the United States (5.6/100,000). Is the 120 figure the total for all female victims? Were there no female victims of child abuse, for instance?
About the topic, the city of Cologne has made a "code of behaviour" for women.
A small extract translated from German: "The new safety package envisages also the introduction of a behaviour code that women should observe. It will soon be made available on the internet and it will exhort them to keep "a safety distance from foreign-looking people, not to walk alone, but always in group, to call for help to bystanders in case of troubles, to immediately inform the police if they notice any suspect person and not to act in public with behaviours that might be misunderstood by people of 'other cultures'."
I won't even comment about that and let all you people draw your conclusion from that.
OK, I'll comment on it. This is nothing but abject, craven surrender; the complete and utter prostration of civilized men and women in the face of filthy barbarians who, in a better time, would have been blocked from stepping foot in Europe by force of arms.
A confident people would look the "people of other cultures" straight in the eye and say "This is how we do things here. Like it or get lost." But Europe has lost its civilizational confidence, and I fear America isn't too far behind.
The difference is that the US assimilate people and those who don't are shunned, Americans are patriotic.
European countries have old cultures, language and different customs to which you can hardly adapt, add to this that most leftists consider "assimilation" to be something fascist and that being a patriot equals being a nazi and you can understand a few things.
Secondly, the US is immense, Europe is small and we absorbed over 1 million of supposed refugees ( why they are refugees if they escape from Turkey which is safe is still a mystery nobody has explained) and they are mostly a bunch of illiterate, unqualified and unskilled workers whose "integration" (if ever happens) will cost millions and millions.
Add to this that they are mostly Muslim, which makes them even harder to integrate, add to this that most of them are welfare leeches (otherwise why all want to go specifically to Sweden and Germany?) whose only desire is to get as much money as they can get and you can get an idea.
To this add the pervasive political correctness that label everybody as "racist" (just remember the other thread about this event) and you can understand why this situation won't end well.
.
OK, thanks for responding. My question goes beyond these somewhat superficial differences, to try to figure out what some of the, perhaps invisible, processes are that are affecting ability to integrate. For example, Muslims in the US are also Muslim, ha, you see; they have mosques and observe their religion. That isn't an obstacle to integration. Russians and Romanians have their churches, Jews have temples, Buddhists have temples and monasteries, Hindus--likewise. Not a problem.
Obviously, most arrive without jobs, but somehow they manage to get jobs. And as long as they have jobs, nobody much minds to what degree they integrate beyond that.
So, to examine the difference in why in the US they're able to get jobs, vs. in Europe, where this seems to be a problem, except for the history of Turkish guest workers, my guess, based on some limited observation is: 1. The newcomers are able to plug into a network of already established people from their countries, who help them get jobs. An example that I noticed is that in a certain city, many of the photocopy businesses are run by some type of middle-eastern people, I don't know which country exactly. So they seem to stake out a certain economic niche, and then help each other start similar businesses. I've also noticed a strong trend for South Asians to get into the hotel business. Immigration from Asia minor to Europe, aside from the Turks, is so new, I take it (?), that there is no community of successful earlier migrants to take them in and help them. That would be a serious handicap.
2. In some cities many of the Muslim and Hindu immigrants become taxi drivers. This is an easy way to employ oneself, so that one can pay basic bills, at a minimum. It works. They don't feel marginalized, since at least they're able to support themselves. Perhaps some of the problem in Europe is anger and frustration that builds up from being unemployed. Just a guess.
Another factor might be that English lessons are available for free, or virtually free, at community colleges. Younger people looking for jobs can learn English, and even learn a skill if they want, get a certificate that could help them find a job. I would expect this kind of thing is also available in Europe, so I don't know why it wouldn't be helping people integrate.
And I wonder if, for the purpose of the discussion, we should define our terms: "integrate" vs. "assimilate". I think one can integrate economically with out assimilating culturally. The US used to push assimilation, but that has changed, as people have come to respect cultural diversity and people's right to keep their culture to the extent at least that cultural practices don't violate the law. But even back when assimilation was valued by the dominant society, the US was full of immigrant communities that were little cultural and linguistic enclaves, and there was nothing bad about that.
History in the US shows that it's usually the second or third generations that assimilate. The kids or grandkids Americanize (often to the dismay of their elders). This will happen in Europe too, over time.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 01-06-2016 at 01:57 PM..
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