The confederate statues in NOLA are coming down (Barack Obama, elections, regime)

[GotHereQuickAsICould]

"Uncle Tom's Cabin," published in 1852, "helped lay the groundwork for the Civil War." https://www.google.com/#q=Uncle+Tom's+Cabin

Northerners changed their minds about slavery. Churches got involved in the Underground Railroad. Southerners got worried that Yankees would take in more free state and soon they've vote slavery out.

Instead of waiting to see if that happened and then walking off in a huff, they attacked Ft. Sumter and the fight was on.

The Civil War was an epic tragedy. Brother against brother. Stories that would break a stone heart. Countless killed, and even more maimed. Who knows where we would be now if it weren't for all those wasted lives, wasted years.

Confederates tore the country apart so they could keep slaves.

And now they want to brag about it?

I don't know about that.

[fillmore241]

Originally Posted by -thomass

New Orleans Confederate monuments can come down, court rules | NOLA.com

The lee statue has been up since 1884. What are your thoughts?

Robert E. Lee thought slavery should be illegal. He was happy it was abolished after they lost.

Saying the Civil War was entirely about racism is a hotly contested topic.

I say remove the statues of the obvious racists/traitors (Jefferson Davis) and leave people like Gen. Lee up.

I (vehemently) have 0 interest in public statues/likenesses that belittle minorities, but I don't completely understand people's logic here. Jefferson and Washington owned slaves - why not strike their likeness off the dollar bills before taking down Lee's statue?

Starting to get on a tangent here, bu Andrew Jackson was a real *******; I was hoping Obama would push through the idea of replacing him with Harriet Tubman. That would have been fantastic.

I just really don't want people to perpetuate this message that "all southern Confederates were racists" - isn't it a lack-of-critical-thinking that allowed slavery to exist for so long anyway? Why must we accept what the mob says?

[Weichert]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

Who is that?

Great southern general. Knew no fear.

Well known song about him on youtube. Watch it.

[Biker53]

Let me ask a new question. Confederate flags have been removed from all public spaces at this point and the process of removing Confederate monuments has begun. Assuming they are all removed, I assume the debate will move to renaming anything that bears the name of a Confederate. That has already begun to some degree. Beyond that is there something else waiting in the wings? For example, will Confederate cemeteries be allowed to remain? What about museums that have a focus on the Confederates or plantation houses that are now museums? This is a serious question looking to understand what the full expectation is.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Weichert

Great southern general. Knew no fear.

Well known song about him on youtube. Watch it.

If he was a Confederate, I have no respect for him.

[Southern man]

Originally Posted by Biker53

Let me ask a new question. Confederate flags have been removed from all public spaces at this point and the process of removing Confederate monuments has begun. Assuming they are all removed, I assume the debate will move to renaming anything that bears the name of a Confederate. That has already begun to some degree. Beyond that is there something else waiting in the wings? For example, will Confederate cemeteries be allowed to remain? What about museums that have a focus on the Confederates or plantation houses that are now museums? This is a serious question looking to understand what the full expectation is.

When all that is done, then everything will be ok.

[ChiGeekGuest]

Originally Posted by Biker53

Let me ask a new question. Confederate flags have been removed from all public spaces at this point and the process of removing Confederate monuments has begun. Assuming they are all removed, I assume the debate will move to renaming anything that bears the name of a Confederate. That has already begun to some degree. Beyond that is there something else waiting in the wings? For example, will Confederate cemeteries be allowed to remain? What about museums that have a focus on the Confederates or plantation houses that are now museums? This is a serious question looking to understand what the full expectation is.

Not sure what happens next. Charlie Daniels said something like 'stubbornness is often mistaken for stupidity' when it comes to these kindsof things. Who knows?

The first time around, when the Confederate flags first came down with the Confederacy's defeat, here's two of the guys' (whose statues recently came down in New Orleans) thoughts regarding. This is immediately after the War & before the 'Lost Cause' mythologies were adopted:

...A quick Google Books search reveals that Robert E. Lee, commander of the Confederate Army during the Civil War, was uncomfortable with the banner. In 1865, Lee wrote in a letter to the Gettysburg Identification Meeting committee that the flag should be put away — and hinted at the negative emotions it evokes to this day:

Similarly, Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War and noted reluctant secessionist, wrote in his 1881 apologia The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government:

Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis Wanted The Confederate Flag To Come Down In The 1800's, According To These Books

https://www.bustle.com/articles/9611...n-in-the-1800s

https://books.google.com/books?id=VN...eeting&f=false

It's worth noting the statues didn't go up immediately following the War, apparently it took some time to indoctrinate folks with the 'Lost Cause' revisionist history.

Not so with the resistance to the outcomes & natural consequences of the American Civil War, & Reconstruction efforts. Pretty much immediately after the War, former Confederate States created Jim Crow laws to follow the 1800–1866 Black Codes, which had previously restricted the civil rights & civil liberties of African-American people.

During the Reconstruction period of 1865–1877, federal law provided civil rights protection in the United States for all American people, & specifically to include all freedmen, all African-Americans who had formerly been enslaved, & all former free blacks.

There was stubborn resistance to the Civil Rights Act of 1875's guarantee that everyone, regardless of race, color, or previous condition of servitude, was entitled to the same treatment in public accommodations, such as inns, public transportation, theaters, & other places of recreation.

Segregation, Jim Crow laws & 'separate but equal' dogma were about maintaining or attempting to recover rights based on white supremacy that were lost when the Confederate States of America lost the American Civil War.

[Bureaucat]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

If he was a Confederate, I have no respect for him.

From the 1955 Broadway Musical 'Lil Abner'.

Sung by the late, great, Stubby Kaye. Lyrics from Savannah, GA native Johnny Mercer. (Moon River, et al.)

https://youtu.be/_TfcJ82FAhw

Songs from the Johnny Mercer Songbook:

He wrote many other songs, some of which have entered the Great American Songbook:

Lyrics by Mercer, unless noted.

Sortable table
Date Song title Music by Notes
1933 "Lazy Bones" Hoagy Carmichael
1934 "P.S. I Love You" Gordon Jenkins
1936 "Goody Goody" Matty Malneck
1936 "I'm an Old Cowhand from the Rio Grande" Johnny Mercer
1937 "Hooray for Hollywood" Richard A. Whiting
1937 "Too Marvelous for Words" Richard A. Whiting
1938 "Jeepers, Creepers!" Harry Warren
1938 "You Must Have Been a Beautiful Baby" Harry Warren
1939 "And the Angels Sing" Ziggy Elman
1939 "Cuckoo in the Clock" Walter Donaldson
1939 "Day In, Day Out" Rube Bloom
1939 "I Thought About You" Jimmy Van Heusen
1939 "Wings Over the Navy" Harry Warren
1940 "Fools Rush In" Rube Bloom
1941 "Blues in the Night" Harold Arlen
1941 "I Remember You" Victor Schertzinger
1941 "Tangerine" Victor Schertzinger
1941 "This Time the Dream's on Me" Harold Arlen
1942 "Moon Dreams" Chummy MacGregor (co-writer)
1942 "Dearly Beloved" Jerome Kern
1942 "Hit the Road to Dreamland" Harold Arlen
1942 "I'm Old Fashioned" Jerome Kern
1942 "Skylark" Hoagy Carmichael
1942 "That Old Black Magic" Harold Arlen
1942 "Trav'lin' Light" Jimmy Mundy, Trummy Young
1943 "Dream" Johnny Mercer
1943 "My Shining Hour" Harold Arlen
1943 "One for My Baby (and One More for the Road)" Harold Arlen Theme for the 1957–1958 NBC detective series Meet McGraw
1944 "Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive" Harold Arlen
1944 "G.I. Jive" Johnny Mercer
1945 "Laura" David Raksin
1945 "Out of This World" Harold Arlen
1946 "Any Place I Hang My Hat Is Home" Harold Arlen
1946 "I Had Myself a True Love" Harold Arlen
1946 "Come Rain or Come Shine" Harold Arlen
1946 "On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe" Harry Warren For the film The Harvey Girls
1947 "Autumn Leaves" Joseph Kosma, orig. French lyrics by Jacques Prévert
1951 "In the Cool, Cool, Cool of the Evening" Hoagy Carmichael For the film Here Comes the Groom
1952 "I Wanna Be a Dancing Man" Harry Warren
1952 "The Glow-Worm" Paul Lincke
1953 "Satin Doll" Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn
1954 "Midnight Sun" Lionel Hampton, Sonny Burke
1954 "Something's Gotta Give" Johnny Mercer
1956 "I'm Past My Prime" Gene de Paul
1956 "Jubilation T. Cornpone" Gene de Paul
1959 "I Wanna Be Around" Johnny Mercer, Sadie Vimmerstedt
1961 "Moon River" Henry Mancini For the film Breakfast at Tiffany's
1962 "Days of Wine and Roses" Henry Mancini For the film Days of Wine and Roses
1962 "Drinking Again" Doris Tauber
1963 "Charade" Henry Mancini
1964 "Emily" Johnny Mandel
1964 "Lorna" Mort Lindsey
1965 "Summer Wind" Henry Mayer
1970 "Whistling Away the Dark" Henry Mancini For the film Darling Lili
1973 "The Phony King of England" Johnny Mercer For the Disney film Robin Hood
1984 "When October Goes" Barry Manilow From 2:00 AM Paradise Cafe
1988 "If It Can't Be You" Barry Manilow
1988 "At Last" Barry Manilow
1988 "Heart of Mine, Cry On" Barry Manilow
1988 "When The Meadow Was Bloomin' " Barry Manilow From With My Lover Beside Me (Nancy Wilson album)
1988 "Just Remember" Barry Manilow From The Complete Collection and Then Some...
1988 "Can't Teach My Old Heart New Tricks" Barry Manilow From The Complete Collection and Then Some...

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Southern man

When all that is done, then everything will be ok.

I would just prefer that you say how you really feel about the disdain of everything Confederate.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest

Not sure what happens next. Charlie Daniels said something like 'stubbornness is often mistaken for stupidity' when it comes to these kindsof things. Who knows?

The first time around, when the Confederate flags first came down with the Confederacy's defeat, here's two of the guys' (whose statues recently came down in New Orleans) thoughts regarding. This is immediately after the War & before the 'Lost Cause' mythologies were adopted:



Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis Wanted The Confederate Flag To Come Down In The 1800's, According To These Books

https://www.bustle.com/articles/9611...n-in-the-1800s

https://books.google.com/books?id=VN...eeting&f=false

It's worth noting the statues didn't go up immediately following the War, apparently it took some time to indoctrinate folks with the 'Lost Cause' revisionist history.

Not so with the resistance to the outcomes & natural consequences of the American Civil War, & Reconstruction efforts. Pretty much immediately after the War, former Confederate States created Jim Crow laws to follow the 1800–1866 Black Codes, which had previously restricted the civil rights & civil liberties of African-American people.

During the Reconstruction period of 1865–1877, federal law provided civil rights protection in the United States for all American people, & specifically to include all freedmen, all African-Americans who had formerly been enslaved, & all former free blacks.

There was stubborn resistance to the Civil Rights Act of 1875's guarantee that everyone, regardless of race, color, or previous condition of servitude, was entitled to the same treatment in public accommodations, such as inns, public transportation, theaters, & other places of recreation.

Segregation, Jim Crow laws & 'separate but equal' dogma were about maintaining or attempting to recover rights based on white supremacy that were lost when the Confederate States of America lost the American Civil War.

Historically, there has been much hard-headedness in the South. The South came out of the slave system kicking and screaming. The South could not live with the fact that it had been defeated in the war.

Robert E. Lee died in 1870. Statues and tributes toward Robert E. Lee did not begin in earnest until the 1880s, during the early stages of Jim Crow fittingly. Stubbornness and stupidity are not the same thing. Very often they go together.

In this case, I don't think those who were honoring Robert E. Lee and other Confederates back in the 1880s were playing dumb. It had been 20 years since the defeat of the Confederates. Still much fresh anger at being defeated and vanquished. We all know that the Southern states wanted to be a nation specifically for the purpose of keeping their slave-owning, bigoted way of life. Stuff like states' rights revolved around that. Reconstruction was too much of a bitter pill for many in the South to swallow.

Right after Reconstruction, the Jim Crow laws came into effect. Soon after, Confederate statues were erected. Tributes for the Confederates were spiking. It was a way of bolstering the Confederate mindset, which is what the Jim Crow mindset is based on. The Confederate monuments were an embodiment of the South trying to re-establish a bigoted social order. In addition, the anger towards Blacks, as well as the government in DC also meant a revenge factor.


The South came out of the slavery institution kicking and screaming. It went back to the Union kicking and screaming. The South was dragged out of its Jim Crow ways kicking and screaming. Stubbornness to say the least. And here is the irony. The South has finally risen, but not as many people would consider. It has risen in the form of Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Miami, Northern Virginia, The Tidewater Area, Cape Canaveral, Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Durham, Cary, etc. Notice the areas that were the most heavily dependent on the plantation economy haven't truly recovered. However, the areas that quickly dispatched that, the areas that become part of the New South, or never really had much to do with the Old South are the areas that are doing the best in the South today.