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Old 11-30-2017, 12:19 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,059 posts, read 44,866,510 times
Reputation: 13718

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
Your logic is flawed. Yes it is possible to spend money and not get a good result.
Nope. The mother of all social engineering experimentation programs which proved that wrong:


An Educational Experiment Yields Some Astonishing Sobering Lessons - Chicago Tribune


Funding isn't the problem.
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:28 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,059 posts, read 44,866,510 times
Reputation: 13718
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
The article is 11 years old.
More recently:

We now know more about how Newark public schools squandered Mark Zuckerberg's $100 million donation

Funding isn't the problem.
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:20 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,800 posts, read 2,803,401 times
Reputation: 4928
Default Even Chicago can manage that

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Nope. The mother of all social engineering experimentation programs which proved that wrong:


An Educational Experiment Yields Some Astonishing Sobering Lessons - Chicago Tribune

Funding isn't the problem.
Older yet - this one can legally vote.
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:30 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,800 posts, read 2,803,401 times
Reputation: 4928
Default Charters are an option, not a panacea

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Yah, charter schools are a possible solution. The big question there: How do you keep charters doing what they started out to do? Bear in mind that charters are exempt from many of the controls that limit how far off the tracks public school corporations can go - & charters don't answer to local school boards, however appointed. Which means that a charter school that kicks over the traces & runs away with the money is very hard to rein in.

The appeals process, due process, normal credentialing & hiring practices - are all very opaque with charters. They're very good @ setting up - because they don't have to toe all these lines. But those lines also provide responsibility & clear lines of delegation. In discipline cases (both student & faculty), for instance - there's only whatever procedure the charter itself has established.

One of the lessons I see in the URL - school reform is a difficult, messy & often contradictory process, & not for the faint of heart nor for people who aren't willing to get their hands dirty & stay with the process. The result of all that money & attention was that some things have gotten better in Newark, some have not - or are arguable.
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,620,010 times
Reputation: 29385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
It is a great example had you done the teeniest amount of reading on the background of this school and what is expected of the students.

Has ZERO to do with the public school system.
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:40 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,059 posts, read 44,866,510 times
Reputation: 13718
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Yah, charter schools are a possible solution. The big question there: How do you keep charters doing what they started out to do? Bear in mind that charters are exempt from many of the controls that limit how far off the tracks public school corporations can go - & charters don't answer to local school boards, however appointed. Which means that a charter school that kicks over the traces & runs away with the money is very hard to rein in.

The appeals process, due process, normal credentialing & hiring practices - are all very opaque with charters. They're very good @ setting up - because they don't have to toe all these lines. But those lines also provide responsibility & clear lines of delegation. In discipline cases (both student & faculty), for instance - there's only whatever procedure the charter itself has established.

One of the lessons I see in the URL - school reform is a difficult, messy & often contradictory process, & not for the faint of heart nor for people who aren't willing to get their hands dirty & stay with the process. The result of all that money & attention was that some things have gotten better in Newark, some have not - or are arguable.
One of the biggest problems is teachers unions. Abolish them. No more seniority pay/raises for keeping a desk chair warm. Pay for competence and performance, instead. Get rid of the current pedagogy that's no more than a joke and has been dumbing classrooms down to the lowest common denominator for 50 years (mixed-ability classes and the attack on academic excellence began in the 1960s, in the SJW pursuit of equal outcomes - I can post a source on that if you wish).
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,620,010 times
Reputation: 29385
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Yah, charter schools are a possible solution. The big question there: How do you keep charters doing what they started out to do? Bear in mind that charters are exempt from many of the controls that limit how far off the tracks public school corporations can go - & charters don't answer to local school boards, however appointed. Which means that a charter school that kicks over the traces & runs away with the money is very hard to rein in.

The appeals process, due process, normal credentialing & hiring practices - are all very opaque with charters. They're very good @ setting up - because they don't have to toe all these lines. But those lines also provide responsibility & clear lines of delegation. In discipline cases (both student & faculty), for instance - there's only whatever procedure the charter itself has established.

One of the lessons I see in the URL - school reform is a difficult, messy & often contradictory process, & not for the faint of heart nor for people who aren't willing to get their hands dirty & stay with the process. The result of all that money & attention was that some things have gotten better in Newark, some have not - or are arguable.
You know why charter schools work well? Not everyone gets in.

It's a lottery system based on a selective process.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,360,489 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Nope. The mother of all social engineering experimentation programs which proved that wrong:


An Educational Experiment Yields Some Astonishing Sobering Lessons - Chicago Tribune


Funding isn't the problem.
Nonsense. It is quite true that money alone will not fix a busted school system. But money may well have a significant role if you go about it with care and a good plan. Kansas City was a desegregation effort that would hopefully improve performance. It did not result in desegregation or improvements in performance. In fact less than half the increased money made it to the classroom. It was also sabotaged by local conditions such as the politics and the schools as a source of employment rather than education.

If you wish smaller classes and higher capability teachers in bad schools and significant social services to the students you will need money. Simple as that. You can of course screw it up even if you get the money. But it will not work at all without the money.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,360,489 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
One of the biggest problems is teachers unions. Abolish them. No more seniority pay/raises for keeping a desk chair warm. Pay for competence and performance, instead. Get rid of the current pedagogy that's no more than a joke and has been dumbing classrooms down to the lowest common denominator for 50 years (mixed-ability classes and the attack on academic excellence began in the 1960s, in the SJW pursuit of equal outcomes - I can post a source on that if you wish).
More nonsense. There is a need for reasonable contract terms of course. And I for one think returning to the old normal school with two years of instruction and one of student teaching might well be a good idea. I too am skeptical of master degrees in education but in subjects for high school it is reasonable.

And performance based rewards would be good but may be very hard in poor schools. How do you hold a teacher accountable when 75% of her students are gone by the end of the year?

And the reality that hit was more the doings of GW Bush when he sign NCLB. It was forcing the schools to report on all students rather than the better that sent us into chaos.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:40 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,576,036 times
Reputation: 8094
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
Nonsense. It is quite true that money alone will not fix a busted school system. But money may well have a significant role if you go about it with care and a good plan. Kansas City was a desegregation effort that would hopefully improve performance. It did not result in desegregation or improvements in performance. In fact less than half the increased money made it to the classroom. It was also sabotaged by local conditions such as the politics and the schools as a source of employment rather than education.

If you wish smaller classes and higher capability teachers in bad schools and significant social services to the students you will need money. Simple as that. You can of course screw it up even if you get the money. But it will not work at all without the money.
What's the biggest problem?

Lack of funding, lack of proper parenting etc.?

I can tell you the only fundamental difference between a good school and a bad school is the students or lack of proper parenting.

No amount of money will fix that.
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