US Aluminum Manufacturer Announces 300 New Jobs in Kentucky Following Trump’s Tariff Announcement (border, party)

[EveryLady]

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

I absolutely understand how they work. They level the playing field to unfair trade. Furthermore as for your example,,,,,

Increase production and costs go down. You left that out. You guys can make up hypothetical situations and it's easy enough to counter every single one of them. Most I don't bother with because they always start with some sort of insult. (logic & fact doesn't require it)

Here's the bottom line. Trump ran on imposing tariffs to end unfair trade and he is absolutely keeping that promise. He's the first President to actually deal with it in a long time. And as the OP demonstrates, they are already having a positive effect on the economy.

WaldoKitty, you keep confusing this action with "unfair trade" cases, where the steel is sold in the United States at less than the cost to produce it. That or subsidized. These tariffs affect all imported steel, depending on the final countries.

Why does this matter? The plants of foreign manufacturers tend to be newer with more efficient production processes. The imported steel is sold at lower prices than US-produced not because it is dumped or subsidized or unfair. It is priced less because it costs less to produce. Fairly-traded product.

And so why will costs go up? Here you have to know something about integrated steel production. Sure don't include myself here but the basics are easy enough. Production starts with blast furnaces that melt iron ore into liquid iron. There are economies of scale for it is expensive to run a blast furnace. Plus they run continuously.

US Steel has announced that it will restart one of the furnaces at the Granite City Works; it should take about 4 months. Restart costs are one thing but producing steel in older facilities and/or making the necessary capital expenditures to upgrade will be expensive. Many integrated steel facilities may have existing contracts that require the use of union labor.

Domestic costs WILL go up, simply because the US industry is by-and-large not competitive with fairly traded imports. It's expensive steel, we make here - and not because it is better quality.

[Raddo]

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

So lets summarize.......

• Before the tariff announcement you could get it for $81.90

• After the tarriff announcement you could get it for $81.90

• After the tariff announcement you actually can get it for $66.22

Yet despite this.

You read some marketing material on one vendor's website about a price that nobody pays, and declare LOUDLY that Trump's tariffs caused prices to to rise due to higher steel costs.



Well........ I'm glad we got to the bottom of that.

All I can say, even though you won't get it anyway, is that the current stock in the pipeline is available for $81.90 or less. Once it's gone, it's gone. BUD Industries is scheduled to ship more of these on 4/30/2018. The suggested retail price of those will be $147.15.

If you have an explanation for a 80% increase in price at the exact same time the tariff issue came onto the worldwide stage, then please, enlighten us.

But I guess I am all wet, because you obviously know my business better than I do.

I have taken a screenshot of the prices shown on the BUD website and saved it. I will do that again the next time it gets updated with the new prices once the 4/30 shipments makes it to the distributors. Then I will revive this thread and post both screenshots here.

[WaldoKitty]

Originally Posted by EveryLady

....
Why does this matter? The plants of foreign manufacturers tend to be newer with more efficient production processes. The imported steel is sold at lower prices than US-produced not because it is dumped or subsidized or unfair. It is priced less because it costs less to produce. Fairly-traded product.....

This is assumption. But if you wish to provide some quantitative proof I'll go with it.

Otherwise, there are steel mills of all technology levels spread across the USA. Nucor steel, for example has some of the most efficient plants in the world.

[le roi]

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

You are making absolutely no sense.

Well, seeing as how i'm quoting you directly, maybe you should give that some thought.

But no matter, the example that guy did give, just proved that prices have not changed.

You do realize that the tariff hasn't been enacted yet... right?

[Mikala43]

I have to mention (other's have too) how odd it was for companies to make pronouncements based upon no given facts..... the tariffs started on everyone, now they will exempt Mexico, Canada and others like Australia (probably)...... which really does change things as MOST of our steel comes from Canada...

[EveryLady]

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

This is assumption. But if you wish to provide some quantitative proof I'll go with it.

Otherwise, there are steel mills of all technology levels spread across the USA.

Not an assumption, but a definition. And like it or not, the burden of quantitative "proof" begins with the domestic manufacturer.

You are correct that it can be difficult for a domestic manufacturer to know whether there's underlying subsidization by a foreign government. Dumping (selling at less than fair value) is easier for domestic manufacturers usually have a good handle on their competitors' costs. Remember, this is steel, a generic product not some high-tech product with patented production processes.

IF a US manufacture believes that steel is being dumped or subsidized they can petition the government for tariff relief called dumping or subsidization duties - and this happens all the time, or at least used to.

Otherwise, the steel is by definition fairly traded or to be semantically precise NOT proved to be unfairly traded. (As was the steel involved in the Bush tariffs in 2002. Fairly traded but STILL being entered in quantities sufficient to harm a US industry. Tariffs were applied, but they only led to downstream loss of jobs and the industry is no better off today than is was 15 years ago.

And, yes, you are correct that there are steel mills of "all technology" levels in the United States, with mini-mills like Nucor fairly successful although no doubt they'd also benefit from tariffs by being able to raise their prices - IF those increases are high enough to offset their possibly higher costs of raw materials (since I don't believe Nucor melts ore???).

[Raddo]

Originally Posted by Mikala43

I have to mention (other's have too) how odd it was for companies to make pronouncements based upon no given facts..... the tariffs started on everyone, now they will exempt Mexico, Canada and others like Australia (probably)...... which really does change things as MOST of our steel comes from Canada...

I agree. These price increases that I am being called a liar about is based on speculation. A sudden 80% price increase in anything is often due to speculation.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

The tariff does not apply to domestically produced steel.

Maybe you did not realize this.

So what? It's still raising the price of the cheapest available steel that can be bought within our borders.

Widget sales price in USA:

USA-produced: $10/lb
Foreign-produced: $7.50/lb.

In this case, industries further up the value chain that depend on widgets (call them widget-plus makers) can buy them at $15,000 per ton instead of $20,000 per ton. Savings to companies of $5,000 per ton.

With a tariff of $2.50/lb. then that savings disappears, forcing the widget-plus makers to spend 33% more for the widgets they use to make their widget-pluses. No surprise, at least some of that cost will get passed to the consumer. In that environment, inflation is much more likely (if you remember in the late 70s, you know just what I mean). To be fair, it's also a matter of monetary policy as much as tarrifs, but arbitrarily raising prices is definitely a part of it.

Even worse, on the global scale, tariffs only provide a temporary advantage; for other countries can easily retaliate. That, btw, is one of the big factors behind the Great Depression. Furthermore, unlike other slippery slopes such as on certain social issues*, "trade wars" actually can easily socialize a population into "us vs them" attitude that make other parts of diplomacy much more difficult, and could even contribute to wars.

(slippery slopes about gun control, increased access to birth control, pot legalization, movements against sexual harassment, bullying, bigotry, etc. turning America into an immoral cesspool or a totalitarian dictatorship).

[WaldoKitty]

Originally Posted by le roi

Well, seeing as how i'm quoting you directly, maybe you should give that some thought. You do realize that the tariff hasn't been enacted yet... right?

You do realize that party I was responding to, announced that prices had already risen due to the announcement only. Right?

And that was just proved wrong.

[Myghost]

Originally Posted by EveryLady

Domestic costs WILL go up, simply because the US industry is by-and-large not competitive with fairly traded imports. It's expensive steel, we make here - and not because it is better quality.

Not to be a stickler (because you are correct in the basic premise of your argument), but I think you meant to say PRICE will go up. (Sorry, just having fun. HelloKitty, you can thank me later...)

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

This is assumption. But if you wish to provide some quantitative proof I'll go with it.

Otherwise, there are steel mills of all technology levels spread across the USA. Nucor steel, for example has some of the most efficient plants in the world.

Nucor Steel is running at full capacity. FYI, they are one of my clients, I was on the phone with them TODAY. (And my father retired from their corporate office in your home town, still lives there). Point being that they are one of the only major US Steel companies that is competitive on the global market, but as a result of that, they don't have capacity to increase production, which kind of kills your entire argument that they will, because in the near-term, they can't. (Which is one of the many reasons I'm a stockholder too!)