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Old 08-23-2018, 07:36 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,311 posts, read 45,033,285 times
Reputation: 13785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Voluntary is nonsense
No, it is not nonsense. One does NOT have to shop at Wal-Mart, buy from Amazon, buy/use an iPhone, etc., etc. Those are all CHOICES. DON'T make that choice for oneself and then complain about it. Idiots.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:41 AM
 
13,898 posts, read 6,465,695 times
Reputation: 6960
Funny hearing leftists talk about getting out only what you put in regarding CEO's but you NEVER hear them say this about welfare scammers and MW workers. The latter in their minds deserver MORE than they contribute or put in just for existing.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:48 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,311 posts, read 45,033,285 times
Reputation: 13785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbones View Post
Funny hearing leftists talk about getting out only what you put in regarding CEO's but you NEVER hear them say this about welfare scammers and MW workers. The latter in their minds deserver MORE than they contribute or put in just for existing.
Valid and interesting point.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,458,125 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, it is not nonsense. One does NOT have to shop at Wal-Mart, buy from Amazon, buy/use an iPhone, etc., etc. Those are all CHOICES. DON'T make that choice for oneself and then complain about it. Idiots.
The reason we will never have (and can never have) a free market system is because companies exist to distort the markets, not to allow for an educated consumer making educated decisions.

Via marketing, product placement, product appearance (how much of one thing you see), etc. companies try to maximize profit, not consumer awareness. Supply creates demand in the real world corporate structure, not vice versa.

Now these choices you speak of are not only limited in nature (as the capital needed to produce such goods/services are controlled by the same companies) but act in similar manners to the point no consumer decision is a good one.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:12 AM
 
12,772 posts, read 7,999,229 times
Reputation: 4332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
The reason we will never have (and can never have) a free market system is because companies exist to distort the markets, not to allow for an educated consumer making educated decisions.

Via marketing, product placement, product appearance (how much of one thing you see), etc. companies try to maximize profit, not consumer awareness. Supply creates demand in the real world corporate structure, not vice versa.

Now these choices you speak of are not only limited in nature (as the capital needed to produce such goods/services are controlled by the same companies) but act in similar manners to the point no consumer decision is a good one.
That is exactly how it should be. Companies are there to maximize profits, provide returns for share holders, and make a good working environment so they can retain the best employees, not to sit there and teach you things.

Learning about products is up to the end user or consumer, you cant be spoon fed your whole life, at some point you have to stop listening to Bernie Sanders and his ilk ramble on about whats "not fair" and take on some responsibility for your own actions.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:18 AM
 
45,280 posts, read 26,536,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Don't like Bernie? Fine, but nothing he said or insinuated is incorrect.
So long as an individual earns their money through voluntary cooperation ( no coercion,no violence, no cronyism, no enforced monopoly) its no one elses business.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,458,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
That is exactly how it should be. Companies are there to maximize profits, provide returns for share holders, and make a good working environment so they can retain the best employees, not to sit there and teach you things.

Learning about products is up to the end user or consumer, you cant be spoon fed your whole life, at some point you have to stop listening to Bernie Sanders and his ilk ramble on about whats "not fair" and take on some responsibility for your own actions.
Nonsense, I don’t listen to Bernie. I agree with him on something’s but that is all.

Furthermore more the free markets as described by Adam Smith was an educated consumer base buying the best product at the best price so demand will create the best supply.

In real capitalism all the major businesses work to distort the free markets so their goods/services sell the most and profit the most. None of this creates a stable production base that answers the base needs of a society.

Freedom of work means allowing production based on abilities, not ownership of capital by a few individuals who distribute the money based on personal profit. Big business has now interest in maintaining a healthy market and private capital always leads to monopolization over said capital by a few. None of this has anything to do with hard work.

Also Bernie is a social democrat (state capitalist), he’s not a Marxist (like myself).
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:51 AM
 
12,772 posts, read 7,999,229 times
Reputation: 4332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Nonsense, I don’t listen to Bernie. I agree with him on something’s but that is all.

Furthermore more the free markets as described by Adam Smith was an educated consumer base buying the best product at the best price so demand will create the best supply.

In real capitalism all the major businesses work to distort the free markets so their goods/services sell the most and profit the most. None of this creates a stable production base that answers the base needs of a society.

Freedom of work means allowing production based on abilities, not ownership of capital by a few individuals who distribute the money based on personal profit. Big business has now interest in maintaining a healthy market and private capital always leads to monopolization over said capital by a few. None of this has anything to do with hard work.

Also Bernie is a social democrat (state capitalist), he’s not a Marxist (like myself).
Being an educated consumer is on YOU, and nobody else.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,458,125 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Being an educated consumer is on YOU, and nobody else.
Sure but that’s not my point. I can be an educated consumer but then the system wouldn’t work. It only works because big business distorts the market and on a wider scale try’s to maximize sales through the cheapest production methods of goods that usually don’t meet a base need.

While production capacities are wasted to sell supplies that need demand, personal labor is deemed invaluable so only profit based production is allowed. And then you forget about the amount of product you see in one place which is meant to force you to buy something from convenience. Or the production chains that are only utilized to lower the cost of the highest produced product, not the best. That means on a wider scale most are not even given the opportunity to make good consumer decisions.

The fact of matter is that big business hates the free market, and as the free market requires the privatization of capital (which leads to big business) the system will never work.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:46 AM
 
12,772 posts, read 7,999,229 times
Reputation: 4332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Sure but that’s not my point. I can be an educated consumer but then the system wouldn’t work. It only works because big business distorts the market and on a wider scale try’s to maximize sales through the cheapest production methods of goods that usually don’t meet a base need.

While production capacities are wasted to sell supplies that need demand, personal labor is deemed invaluable so only profit based production is allowed. And then you forget about the amount of product you see in one place which is meant to force you to buy something from convenience. Or the production chains that are only utilized to lower the cost of the highest produced product, not the best. That means on a wider scale most are not even given the opportunity to make good consumer decisions.

The fact of matter is that big business hates the free market, and as the free market requires the privatization of capital (which leads to big business) the system will never work.
This is just your opinion, and I disagree with that premise. Most people shop with price as the main factor, therefor "cheap" is what they want and exactly what they get.

Everything else about business hating the free market and consumers being forced to buy things are again just an opinion, and an incredibly biased one at that, which also paints with enormously wide strokes.
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