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I do not think there is any difference in mental CAPABILITY among various ethnic groups. I do believe that that potential is retarded often by culture though. If you put any person at the top of any arc among any racial group in America and allow him or her to prosper, that person will do well.
That's your opinion, and that's totally fine. Personally, though, I myself am less sure about this. I mean, sure, the smartest 1% of Black people in the U.S.--with an average IQ of perhaps 115--are going to perform much better on average than the White population in the U.S. will. However, their performance is probably going to pale in comparison to the smartest 1% of White people in the U.S.--who will probably have an average IQ in the range of 135.
Given the failure to raise IQs in the West in recent decades, I am skeptical of the possibility that we can raise the average IQ of the top 1% of Blacks in the U.S. by 15 or 20 points.
Reality is eventually going to bite one in the ass whether one likes it or not, though. Indeed, I certainly don't see liberals in the U.S. and West being anywhere near as totalitarian as the left-wingers in the Soviet Union previously were. Thus, whatever the facts are, they will almost certainly eventually get out, and people are going to have to deal with these facts.
Yes, and this is a very serious problem. Not only are liberals very possibly deluding themselves about reality, but they could also unintentionally be doing harm to underperforming minorities themselves. Indeed, if liberals base opposition to racism on the belief that all races are exactly the same (at least on important traits such as intelligence), and if evidence emerges that all races are not the same in regards to this, then these liberals themselves are going to give racists an excuse to justify bringing back segregation and Jim Crow!
The proper thing for liberals to do is to argue that racism is a moral failing and that all people should be treated decently regardless of their IQ as well as that people of different races shouldn't be judged based on the average IQ--or any other average, such as criminality--of their specific race. It is through moves such as this that we can prevent ugly consequences from emerging. Basically, people need to have an honest discussion about the facts without presuming that embracing these facts results in things such as a return to segregation and Jim Crow. After all, if the low average IQ of certain groups is proven to have a genetic basis to it, then that is no more of a rationale for a return to segregation and Jim Crow than the participation of individual Jews in Communist movements is a rationale for a second Holocaust!
Yes, this is certainly the case right now, but I am hopeful that this will eventually change. Of course, it might take a while for things to change in regards to this even after the science in regards to this will be settled. It's a huge shame, but it is what it is and I am hopeful for the long-term in regards to this.
Are there any IQ studies that adjust for income? Anytime you're comparing a comparatively wealthy population to a poorer one - there's going to be issues with the data. Poverty can lower your IQ by 13 points.
That's your opinion, and that's totally fine. Personally, though, I myself am less sure about this. I mean, sure, the smartest 1% of Black people in the U.S.--with an average IQ of perhaps 115--are going to perform much better on average than the White population in the U.S. will. However, their performance is probably going to pale in comparison to the smartest 1% of White people in the U.S.--who will probably have an average IQ in the range of 135.
Given the failure to raise IQs in the West in recent decades, I am skeptical of the possibility that we can raise the average IQ of the top 1% of Blacks in the U.S. by 15 or 20 points.
I think generally, we are on the same page, but whereas I focus more on culture, you put your emphasis on genetics. I understand your point and appreciate it, and hope you can mine.
Agreed. It would be hard to exaggerate the degree to which the dogma of innate group equality has poisoned the West.
Completely agreed with this. Not only has this idea resulted in anti-White--and, in the past, anti-Jewish sentiment--but liberals' authoritarianism over this issue is scary. I mean, Yes, it's certainly nothing compared to the Soviet Union, but it's absolutely terrible that even mentioning the possibility that racial and ethnic gaps in things such as average IQ could have a genetic basis to them can result in extremely massive shaming, getting fired, getting labelled an extremist by the SPLC, getting harassed, et cetera. In regards to this issue, some liberals have treated their opponents worse than conservative Christians treat atheists and agnostics! For goodness sake, what happened to trying to figure out what is actually true? I mean, sure, Galileo's ideas weren't popular in his day, but they ended up being true. Who is to say that people such as Arthur Jensen, Charles Murray, and Richard Herrnstein likewise wouldn't be vindicated in the future?
I do not think there is any difference in mental CAPABILITY among various ethnic groups.
That puts you at odds with pretty much all the evidence we have on IQ around the world.
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I do believe that that potential is retarded often by culture though. If you put any person at the top of any arc among any racial group in America and allow him or her to prosper, that person will do well.
Lots of people seem to think of culture as some fundamental driving force that shapes everything else when actually it is just the sum of individuals' behavior within a particular group. It is more a derivative of behavior as a cause of it.
I think generally, we are on the same page, but whereas I focus more on culture, you put your emphasis on genetics. I understand your point and appreciate it, and hope you can mine.
Yeah, I certainly appreciate your point and agree that this is an unsolved issue for the time being. Indeed, I personally don't claim to know for a fact that these gaps are (mostly) due to genetics; rather, I am simply pointing out that this is a very real possibility.
Contrary to what some liberals might think, hundreds (for Ashkenazi Jews), thousands, and tens of thousands of years is plenty of time for different groups of humans to evolve differently. It's extremely interesting that some liberals criticize conservatives for denying evolution and at the same time a significant number of liberals appears to be in complete denial about the possibility that different groups of humans could have evolved differently--including in regards to important traits such as intelligence.
That puts you at odds with pretty much all the evidence we have on IQ around the world.
Lots of people seem to think of culture as some fundamental driving force that shapes everything else when actually it is just the sum of individuals' behavior within a particular group. It is more a derivative of behavior as a cause of it.
Technically speaking, this issue hasn't been conclusively proven yet. However, the (mostly) genetic hypothesis is certainly very plausible.
Also, in regards to culture, interestingly enough, if this were actually true, it could be used as an excuse to justify colorblind conservative policies such as cutting or even completely eliminating the social safety net. After all, the colorblind conservative would claim that intellectualism would be much more valued in Black and Hispanic households if these households didn't get so much welfare from the government!
That puts you at odds with pretty much all the evidence we have on IQ around the world.
Lots of people seem to think of culture as some fundamental driving force that shapes everything else when actually it is just the sum of individuals' behavior within a particular group. It is more a derivative of behavior as a cause of it.
Do you not think culture influences this? I don't think the races have been separated long enough in the course of evolution to develop this. I have lived all over the world and have experienced how different peoples are not as 'in tuned' but I do not think that is racial.
Conventional knowledge tells us Asians are smart. I can tell you firsthand that the world considers Asian peoples to be 'smart', but having lived and experienced people in those cultures, I can tell you that I think most Asian people are not nearly as developed as most Western people. Their understanding, according to our thinking for certain is not developed at all.
Are there any IQ studies that adjust for income? Anytime you're comparing a comparatively wealthy population to a poorer one - there's going to be issues with the data. Poverty can lower your IQ by 13 points.
I don't dispute that poverty can reduce one's IQ--especially in developed countries. However, I would also like to point out that some poor countries--such as Vietnam and (formerly poor) China--have performed extremely well on the PISA exam (specifically the exam for the Programme for International Student Assessment):
Anatoly Karlin has pointed out that ex-Communist countries often perform better on academic tests such as PISA and TIMSS than their wealth would suggest while countries with a resource or tourism windfall often perform worse on these academic tests than their wealth would suggest:
If it was only about wealth, then there would be no reason for ex-Communist countries and countries with a resource or tourism windfall to be exceptions to the rule in regards to this.
Do you not think culture influences this? I don't think the races have been separated long enough in the course of evolution to develop this. I have lived all over the world and have experienced how different peoples are not as 'in tuned' but I do not think that is racial.
Conventional knowledge tells us Asians are smart. I can tell you firsthand that the world considers Asian peoples to be 'smart', but having lived and experienced people in those cultures, I can tell you that I think most Asian people are not nearly as developed as most Western people. Their understanding, according to our thinking for certain is not developed at all.
I hate to break it to you, but theoretically speaking, a significant gap in average IQ between two different groups of humans can emerge in as little as 100 years. Here is a scenario for you:
Two populations--Pop A and Pop B--have the exact same environment and start out with an average IQ of 100. In Pop A, everyone has two children. Thus, the average IQ of Pop A remains 100 during these entire 100 years. However, the only people in Pop B who reproduce are people who have an IQ of 115 or above--all of whom have five children. Obviously regression towards the mean would occur, and with a narrow-sense heritability of 0.5, the children which are born to Pop B should have an average IQ of around 110 (their parents should have an average IQ of around 120 given how all of them have an IQ of 115 or above, and their children should thus have an average IQ halfway between their parents and their population mean). Anyway, within 100 years, almost all of the previous generation in Pop B (the one with an average IQ of 100) will pass away and thus the new average IQ of Population B is probably going to be 110 or above. Thus, within a 100 year time period, you can see how an IQ gap of at least 10 points was created between two populations which had an identical average IQ just 100 years before. Also, please note that this was just a 100 year time period; much greater changes can occur within much greater time periods.
Anyway, I think that I have sufficiently proven my point here.
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