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People would not be much freer than an inmate or a slave. They would have freedom to go where they want but essentially they are working for free. And they are dependent on others to work hard or their standard of living will not change and might get worse.
I have an ex spouse who worked a union job with L.A. County. The welfare department. When she got the job she was very happy and put in a great deal of effort. She got pulled aside by some long term union employees. They told her to slow down. She was making them look bad. Just work hard enough so you don't get in trouble but never harder than that. I have heard similar stories from lots of people over the years. That is your world. Mediocre. You want more out of life? Trade in the inevitable black market that will exist.
I have made a pretty good living understanding human nature. And most of it has nothing to do with capitalism just the inner motivation of people and how to tap into that. I know you have read a lot of books from people hypothesizing about how they think this world will play out and people would all eventually comply. But people are not ants we question our role and what they are getting out of it and finding shortcuts to getting there. I had my basic needs covered long ago. I don't buy the latest and greatest things or try to impress others. My whole point now of making money, making deals, etc is because it is so much fun and I am good at it. There are millions like me. To just be an ant and find some crumb to bring back for the common good and be satisfied with that would never work. For others knowing that there are thousands of ants doing the exact same thing and they will never be hungry is comforting. The people not complying would be a big problem in your society. As would the ones who will simply steal from the others or be lazy and do less than is what is expected. Like I said I understand people. I don't think many of the authors of books you believe in understand people very well.
So what happens to rentiers? The economic structure is much more complicated than just people producing things.
People directly gain from their own work. Personal production goes to yourself, and union work, while available to everyone, also benefits you being as public goods are for you as well as anyone else’s.
And each community can be different, they’ll be worker councils, city councils, democratic syndicates that connect supply chains, and even larger unions like fire departments and what not.
You can look at how towns in the Swiss alps or Congo operate. You don’t need monetary reward (as that is just a tool to keep labor under control), nor do you reward from the personal wealth of one individual.
Look at right now, people work hard for the wealth of others. Now that is the basis of our system. We work hard enough for merely the hope of getting rich one day. In the meantime, we work for the personal wealth of others. If you understood the amount of excess goods this industrialized (and now digitized) model has brought (while also further depleting the earth’s resources), then you’d know If we wanted to, we could end homelessness, poverty, and hunger in seconds. We produce more than enough for everyone and yet people don’t get these end productions because their ‘value’ is deemed unworthy.
That is not a stable system. When you see that my proposition is not radical (it is fairly moderate), and you see how the system we have today where wealth is controlled by a handful of people is extreme and brutal, you’ll see who’s telling the truth.
And unions as I describe them (worker cooperatives) are very different from the unions that exist today.
People directly gain from their own work. Personal production goes to yourself, and union work, while available to everyone, also benefits you being as public goods are for you as well as anyone else’s.
What do you mean by personal production? Say you are making a specialty product for women and you are a man?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
And each community can be different, they’ll be worker councils, city councils, democratic syndicates that connect supply chains, and even larger unions like fire departments and what not.
You can look at how towns in the Swiss alps or Congo operate. You don’t need monetary reward (as that is just a tool to keep labor under control), nor do you reward from the personal wealth of one individual.
Look at right now, people work hard for the wealth of others.Now that is the basis of our system.
I don't. I work for myself. By the time I was 12 or so I knew that was the way to go. Now with the gig economy more and more are doing similar things. I directly profit from my efforts. Anyone can do the same. You just have to decide that it is a priority and do it. Some lead and some follow. I prefer to lead and control my own destiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
We work hard enough for merely the hope of getting rich one day. In the meantime, we work for the personal wealth of others. If you understood the amount of excess goods this industrialized (and now digitized) model has brought (while also further depleting the earth’s resources), then you’d know If we wanted to, we could end homelessness, poverty, and hunger in seconds. We produce more than enough for everyone and yet people don’t get these end productions because their ‘value’ is deemed unworthy.
A lot of homeless people want to be homeless. I have lived in areas with large homeless populations. It is a lifestyle choice for some.
Hunger is quickly ending around the world. I mentioned in a previous post that we have gone in 100 years for 90% not having enough to eat to 10% and I believe at last count it was 7%. And regarding earths resources? Which resources are depleted? We are shifting away from fossil fuels. America has more trees than it ever has. We are converting salt water to fresh. All the advancements are coming from countries that allow capitalism to exist. It is greed being channeled in a positive way. What great ideas have come out of Cuba? Their best ideas have been related to creating flotation devices to leave the island.
What do you mean by personal production? Say you are making a specialty product for women and you are a man?
I don't. I work for myself. By the time I was 12 or so I knew that was the way to go. Now with the gig economy more and more are doing similar things. I directly profit from my efforts. Anyone can do the same. You just have to decide that it is a priority and do it. Some lead and some follow. I prefer to lead and control my own destiny.
A lot of homeless people want to be homeless. I have lived in areas with large homeless populations. It is a lifestyle choice for some.
Hunger is quickly ending around the world. I mentioned in a previous post that we have gone in 100 years for 90% not having enough to eat to 10% and I believe at last count it was 7%. And regarding earths resources? Which resources are depleted? We are shifting away from fossil fuels. America has more trees than it ever has. We are converting salt water to fresh. All the advancements are coming from countries that allow capitalism to exist. It is greed being channeled in a positive way. What great ideas have come out of Cuba? Their best ideas have been related to creating flotation devices to leave the island.
Then you wouldn’t work in a specialty production place. In fact, specialty production places would only be established if all needs based production are compensated for. In such a scenario, people who work there wouldn’t be of want in terms of happy living, and could participate in whatever type of business they choose. If you are talking about necessary female products, then like production centers today they’d exist based on demand. If women have more demand for these types of products, then they could set up a union to help increase production, or go to a syndicate and connect with other such unions.
Production for yourself can be based on on whatever you do, and even then you don’t need that excess production. All production is a public good, and each individual can make usage of it.
Look at Manchuria, each town set up their own councils, assemblies, and they worked based on voluntary direct democracy to set up organized labor to meet the needs of the town. They didn’t need a corporation setting it up for them.
2. The gig economy is incredibly limited, and is organized by one central company. Needs based production should be free, not value based production that dependent on company profits
3. Resources, homelessness, disease, etc. are a production of a profit based incentive motive. When we are producing more than we need, everyone should have access to these ends. Now tell me, are the drug addicts, mentally ill, war veterans, etc. choosing to be homeless?
Because if love to know. If you chose to live without shelter that is your choice, but the majority don’t.
As for earth’s resources, the more you exploit them, the more geological consequences there are, and people keep doing it for the sake of maximizing production
And once again, Cuba is far closer to your established system.
The title of this page is funny Americans butchered Native Americans and stole their land. More like Europeans butchered Native inhabitants of the land and called it American while taking their land.
The title of this page is funny Americans butchered Native Americans and stole their land. More like Europeans butchered Native inhabitants of the land and called it American while taking their land.
There were no native Americans back then. Everyone migrated here from somewhere else. The butchering occurred on both sides. It wasn't anyone's land back then either. It was a wide open frontier without ownership or immigration laws.
The title of this page is funny Americans butchered Native Americans and stole their land. More like Europeans butchered Native inhabitants of the land and called it American while taking their land.
Or, more accurate, they butchered those who were butchers themselves and then took the spoils of conquest (as would've the people they took it from)...
Were there atrocities on the part of the colonial and/or US government? Yes.
Were there atrocities on the part of the Native Americans? Yes.
Were there actual legal, peaceable land sales between the two? Yes.
Were there atrocities on the part of the colonial and/or US government? Yes.
Were there atrocities on the part of the Native Americans? Yes.
Were there actual legal, peaceable land sales between the two? Yes.
It was their land, they lived there, any aggression was started by us. Just like the Palestinians, they had a right to fight back and take back their land.
It was their land, they lived there, any aggression was started by us. Just like the Palestinians, they had a right to fight back and take back their land.
And under the rules of conquest prevalent at the time, might made right. Therefore it was correct under the operating morality of the era to take what was wanted and push primitive savages off land they were squatting on. And they were squatting. There was no system of private property rights. Therefore no ownership. Now, 300 years later, nobody is owed anything. Anyone born today is a fresh new individual who is DUE NOTHING. So let’s just drop it and stay in the present. The idea that my tax dollars are going to go to a present distant descendant of someone who was wronged, if they were wronged, from 300 years ago? Absolutely screw that. You only wrong past historical wrongs to direct victims. And in 2018 there are no victims, just free people. Some of whom want to whine and look to make themselves present day victims of the ancient wrongs of antiquity. Not happening. Descendants of slaves, or Indians, or anyone else are due nothing. They are born into a free country today and are responsible for themselves. No stealing from other current people who never did anything wrong and will not accept these phony fake fraudulent claims of debt.
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