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Old 09-18-2018, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
1. Marx's philosophical points were based on no studies WHATSOEVER, either. Thus, the idea of a "theory." Perhaps you've heard of it. Einstein's theories were based on no studies, either. It took many years before we were even able to confirm his ideas via "studies."

Also, any university politics professor's rebuttal to Rand's ideas would be based on no studies whatsoever, as well. Politics is not science. Outside of science, a "study" is simply an opinion with a bunch of footnotes citing opinions. Political theory is not a math equation, but ideas. Those ideas either work in practice or they do not. To this point, Rand's ideas have never been tried.

2. I have read Marx. I've always lived by the notion of "know thine enemy." I've also read the Koran (Quran). What you meant to say is "slave for the state or collective on that land" (rather than, "live in operation on that land"). An antebellum slave shack was the home of the slave(s) as well. They worked for their "state" all day and slept in their own shack a couple of hours each night. A state is simply a more powerful plantation owner. A people's under the boot of collectivism is simply a larger group of slaves.

3. No sir, sorry. I am not responsible for anything other than my own actions. If what you say were the case, you would be responsible for everything that has ever happened since the beginning of time besides whatever it is you have hoisted your cross and gone on a crusade against. I am an individual. You are a Borg in The Collective.

If the presentation of the Borg Collective was before your time, here's what they were portrayed as. Little did any of us know that STNG was prophetic rather than just a good show. The Borg were supposed to be the bad guys, not the model for modern civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg
No, I disagree with a lot of this. Read Kropotkin, he has a lot of scientific and social studies to back his beliefs. Also, I'm not a Marxist, I'm an anarchist.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,691,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
No, I disagree with a lot of this. Read Kropotkin, he has a lot of scientific and social studies to back his beliefs. Also, I'm not a Marxist, I'm an anarchist.
Scientific studies on social matters, refer to majority behaviour, not absolutes about what individuals believe/think.

Any system based on those "study" conclusions, is just shackling some, with the belief of others.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Scientific studies on social matters, refer to majority behaviour, not absolutes about what individuals believe/think.

Any system based on those "study" conclusions, is just shackling some, with the belief of others.
It's not solely based on that, but at least it has some backing in studies, unlike Ayn Rand's beliefs.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:21 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,775 posts, read 18,840,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I'm an anarchist.
You meant authoritarian. That explains it. Anarchy only works if everyone plays by "the rules." Otherwise it turns into a Mad Max setting and ultimately a people repressed under whomever has the best army or the biggest fists. Anarchy eventually leads to some form of authoritarianism.

Personally, I am a libertarian who strongly leans toward strict individual liberty. But, I'm not stupid. That kind of libertarianism wouldn't work in today's world any more than anarchy would. Again, it could only work if everyone played by "the rules" and evil did not exist. But evil does exist and everyone is playing by a hundred dozen different sets of rules. That's why a representative republic is the best we can do right now, assuming we can even hold that together. Humanity is not ready for true individual liberty and they certainly are not ready for anarchy, even though those ideals are not necessarily bad. They are only impractical and unworkable right now.

Also, there is no such thing as a "study" these days. There is a person or group with a preconceived bias trying to make the statistics say what he/she/they want them to say, which, if you know statistical methods well, is fairly easy to do given the general population's lack of mathematical skill and their willingness to blindly "appeal to authority."

Last edited by ChrisC; 09-18-2018 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,691,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
It's not solely based on that, but at least it has some backing in studies, unlike Ayn Rand's beliefs.
If those studies become the basis of an economic system, they will still be the basis of tyranny, because not everyone is the same - diversity of thought, shouldn't be trampled under the feet of intellectuals and their "studies"
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
If those studies become the basis of an economic system, they will still be the basis of tyranny, because not everyone is the same - diversity of thought, shouldn't be trampled under the feet of intellectuals and their "studies"
They are not the basis for it, they are only in support of it.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
You meant authoritarian. That explains it. Anarchy only works if everyone plays by "the rules." Otherwise it turns into a Mad Max setting and ultimately a people repressed under whomever has the best army or the biggest fists. Anarchy eventually leads to some form of authoritarianism.

Personally, I am a libertarian who strongly leans toward strict individual liberty. But, I'm not stupid. That kind of libertarianism wouldn't work in today's world any more than anarchy would. Again, it could only work if everyone played by "the rules" and evil did not exist. But evil does exist and everyone is playing by a hundred dozen different sets of rules. That's why a representative republic is the best we can do right now, assuming we can even hold that together. Humanity is not ready for true individual liberty and they certainly are not ready for anarchy, even though those ideals are not necessarily bad. They are only impractical and unworkable right now.

Also, there is no such thing as a "study" these days. There is a person or group with a preconceived bias trying to make the statistics say what he/she/they want them to say, which, if you know statistical methods well, is fairly easy to do given the general population's lack of mathematical skill and their willingness to blindly "appeal to authority."
I’m tired right now so please read about the voluntary decentralized federations that form towns, unions and syndicates: https://libcom.org/library/what-anarcho-syndicalism
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,691,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
They are not the basis for it, they are only in support of it.
Support of group behaviour, not individual aspirations. Someone else's standard of living isn't my concern, as long as people have food and shelter, and the right to create their own economic reality.

Any economic system will have those ideologically opposed to it, but systems that allow individuals the biggest choice of economic path, that have the most to offer, as I see it.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Support of group behaviour, not individual aspirations. Someone else's standard of living isn't my concern, as long as people have food and shelter, and the right to create their own economic reality.

Any economic system will have those ideologically opposed to it, but systems that allow individuals the biggest choice of economic path, that have the most to offer, as I see it.
Nope, individualism can only prosper based on the acknowledgement of how their actions affect others. Those who use resources affect others, that is why cooperatives of workers where that which is acted on is based on mutual agreement is the only way to allow freedom to everyone while avoiding the tragedy of the commons (which is based on capitalism by the way)-

http://www.infoshop.org/an-anarchist...f-the-commons/

Read Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution to learn how voluntary cooperation is the basis of human survival and prosperity.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KsvUAN-BHs

cooperatives are thriving in the new economy.
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