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I've heard many people argue over the cause of the Civil War. Was it fought over slavery, or to preserve the Union? Was it all about states' rights or, as you propose, about money and control? Regardless of the proximal cause, no one can deny that, if slavery did not exist in the United States, there would never have been a Civil War.
Arguing over specific semantics about the causes of the Civil War is irrelevant, and I suspect there are some people who are doing that deliberately to dilute, deflect the correct and strong association of Confederate flags, monuments or icons with the legacy of subjungation of a whole class of people.
I've heard many people argue over the cause of the Civil War. Was it fought over slavery, or to preserve the Union? Was it all about states' rights or, as you propose, about money and control? Regardless of the proximal cause, no one can deny that, if slavery did not exist in the United States, there would never have been a Civil War.
just read the words and action on the man the waged war on the South and rejected their independence. It was to preserve the Union. You can't wage war on states for doing something legal and constitutionally protected like slavery.
even if no slavery existed , there still would have been a war because Lincoln believed no state can leave the Union. The South didn't want to pay the high taxes and regulations and they felt the North didn't represent them. Different cultures.
this wasn't a civil war........a civil war is what China, Spain and Vietnam had. 2 sides fighting to control the whole country and rule over the whole population and destroy the other side. This was more a war on independence, 1 side declared their independence and wanted to be left alone.....just like the Republic of Texas and the Republic of California did when they declared their independence from Mexico.
I don't agree. At least in my neck of the woods, it has a strong association with racism and white supremacy. Probably not true across the board, but in general.
I found it hard to believe an entire cohort of people were that racist in this day and age. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit.
Arguing over specific semantics about the causes of the Civil War is irrelevant, and I suspect there are some people who are doing that deliberately to dilute, deflect the correct and strong association of Confederate flags, monuments or icons with the legacy of subjungation of a whole class of people.
Let's call what the deflection really is. Gaslighting. Some of these persons know it was about slavery and know that you can't suppose a cause so morally reprehensible. Some persons side with the Confederacy and its cause. However, rather than lose face, some persons try to paint the other party as the bad guys.
And you keep doubling down on stupidity. I never said Lincoln had the power to abolish slavery. That still does not refute what the Confederate cause was about. And by the way, slavery was not explicitly mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. It was, however, explicitly mentioned and protected in the Confederate Constitution.
We're not talking about why Lincoln waged war. We're talking about the Confederate flag and the Confederate cause.
so the south left for something that was already legal and constitutionally protected or they left to be independent?
that's like California leaving the union to be independent to keep practicing abortions on demand or Texas leaving the union to keep bear arms when both things are already protected under the constitution and the courts....LOL
by the way, abortions is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution but its the law and protected under the constitution, the same with gay marriage.....try again!..........Slavery was protected by original constitution and backed by the U.S. Supreme Court....try again.
the South left to be independent,...what part of that you can't comprehend? even if they would have stay in the Union, slavery would still been legal and protected by the courts and constitution.....try again!
Well don't argue and stop making $hiat up....the reason the founding fathers didn't outlaw slavery in the constitution because 2/3 of them, the MAJORITY Owned slaves including our 1st President and the U.S. government was dependent of the revenues of slavery especially after the Revolution War when the new Republic was broke and in debt. I never said all of them owned slaves.
Even in the North it didn't have the votes to outlaw slavery. That's the reason the North passed the Corwin Amendment in 1861. It was an amendment to put in black and white and bold in the U.S. Constitution that slavery was a state right and that congress could never interfere with the states that practiced slavery. Lincoln supporting the amendment and it passed with a majority in the North only since the South didn't vote because they already left and declared their independence. If the South would had return it would have been in the constitution but they refused to return for many reasons that had to do about taxes and control of their economy and resources. So that kills your opinion.
2/3 of the founding fathers owned slaves. Many Presidents owned slaves from Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Andrew Johnson and Grant but your counter argument to that is Adams didn't own slaves? LOL....OK.
My only point was that ALL the founding fathers didn't own slaves. You said ALL.. you were wrong.. glad you see that now..
My only point was that ALL the founding fathers didn't own slaves. You said ALL.. you were wrong.. glad you see that now..
I don't want to go back to 44 pages in this topic to find what I originally wrote. I give you the benefit of the doubt to what you say is true. Since you brought it up multiple times, I clarified my statement several times to a majority of the founding fathers and the majority of the Presidents before 1865 owned slaves.
It was protected by the constitution and the courts.
If anything, it is a shock when I do see an African-American viewing the Confederate flag as something positive. I've seen more Black American men play hockey and participate in rodeos(I have watched some rodeos on TV) than express any kind fo positive feelings for the Confederate flag.
This thread shows that the "Lost Cause" myth has never gone away.
An interesting note, Lincoln offered to reimburse the slave owners for buying up the slaves. Southern states refused. We both know that slavery was not only an economic way of life. It was a societal way of life. Destroying slavery meant destroying everything that the South was during the antebellum period. For someone like me, I would be perfectly fine with it. If I had been living back then, that way of life would be at my expense. I would be a slave as the vast majority of Blacks were in the South.
One thing that the Civil War did is set the tone for the next century. Jim Crow was not just some system of laws. It was a way of restoring the Old South way of life. Jim Crow didn't go away without kicking and screaming (and some deadly violence). Jim Crow was also a form of revenge. Not only was there anger towards the North, there was anger towards Blacks.
Gaslighting is nothing new. The whole crazy-making, well, it's not different than dealing with an abuser. If the abuser can't refute the facts, the next course of action is to go after the person. It is not just about "never say sorry", it's "never admit to being wrong". Yes, there were some Black Confederates. How many though? And how many compared to Black Union soldiers? And does it negate that the Confederate cause was heavily about slavery?
Agree the belief in the 'Lost Cause' mythologies is still present, still distorting history, & still attempting to justify the concept that owning people as property is a legitimate one. The arguments based on the various sophistries are only too transparent. The CSA fought to preserve & sought to expand their 'way of life'. A 'way of life' based on the absolute right for some people to own other people as property. Even if they had succeeded, they would have had to erect a wall around their Confederate Country because the people in the Free States did not agree with returning escaped enslaved people. That would not have changed if they had won. It was also a very big & contentious issue back then. The CSA sought to force their warped views on owning people as property on all the people of the USA. The 36th Congress attempted to appease the Slave States to avert a military conflict. As had been previously attempted at the Constitutional Convention. It was a 'no go' then & no matter how many Amendments were proposed by the 36th Congress, the Slave States would have none of it.
There was a guy in TX who was still trying to get Texas to ratify the Corwin Amendment in March of 1963.
Quote:
On March 2, 1861, the 36th congress adopted a joint resolution to amend the constitution prohibiting other amendments to the constitution giving congress the power “to abolish or interfere, within any state, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said state.” Ratification by three-fourths of the states is required to put such an amendment into effect; just three states ratified this one, Ohio, Mary.land, and Illinois. The civil war started on April 12, 1861.
Rep. Henry Stollenwerck, one of the seven Republicans in the Texas House, has introduced a joint resolution by which Texas would ratify this 1861 amendment and ask the other states, except the three that have already ratified it, to do likewise.
Do you feel this thread has answered the questions posed in your OP?
I think this thread has turned into a fight. I'm spending more time trying to prove to pro-Confederates that the "Lost Cause" mythology is wrong. This was suppose to be a discussion regarding the large disconnect between how alot of Whites in the South view the Confederate flag vs how alot of Blacks in the South view the Confederate flag, and why this is so. More people need to think about these things. A few people posed some interesting questions regarding the disconnect between its heavy use among White working class individuals vs hardly every being used among middle upper class Whites.
In the end, very little has come from it. Some people have given some educated and insightful answers, but the thread as a whole has turned into a dumpster fire.
so the south left for something that was already legal and constitutionally protected or they left to be independent?
that's like California leaving the union to be independent to keep practicing abortions on demand or Texas leaving the union to keep bear arms when both things are already protected under the constitution and the courts....LOL
by the way, abortions is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution but its the law and protected under the constitution, the same with gay marriage.....try again!..........Slavery was protected by original constitution and backed by the U.S. Supreme Court....try again.
the South left to be independent,...what part of that you can't comprehend? even if they would have stay in the Union, slavery would still been legal and protected by the courts and constitution.....try again!
Yes, the south wanted to leave over something that was still legal. Like I said before, the Articles of Secession and the Confederate Constitution are much more telling about what the Confederacy wanted that Lincoln was.
Yes, I know the South wanted to be independent. The question is WHY???? WHY did the South wanted independence so badly? The answers are in the Articles of Secession, and slavery was one of the biggest answers. You have not proven otherwise. And slavery was not explicitly protected in the Constitution. It just wasn't mentioned much. The Confederate Constitution, however, explicitly protected slavery.
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