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He didn't have to worry. Slaves were used in Confederate camps as cooks and laborers, but they were prohibited from being combatants until a month or so before Appamattox. (If you can find a pay roster for a black Confederate combatant, please share it. I have been looking for 25 years with no success.) It would have been sheer idiocy to arm the slaves you held in bondage.
I haven't found a pay roster either. And I think we both know why some people keep pushing the "Black Confederates" narrative. There is a desperation to paint the Confederate cause as a noble, morally sound cause.
The rebel flag is traitorous symbolism. You would imagine it couldn’t actually be worse than that, it also represents an organized attempt to split a nation in half to maintain one of the worst acts of atrocity in human history. And let’s keep flying it cause we’re rebels.
Only white people could get away with such a thing without outright rioting. I mean people complain about blacks rioting because they don’t want to be in constant danger of being beaten within an inch of their life. Imagine the reaction if blacks flew a flag with decapitated dead white babies on it, on their houses, cars, clothes. Their excuse being that it represents all the dead black babies that died during slavery.
I don't own a Confederate flag. I'm bothered when I see one flying somewhere. I don't think there are too many people, in THESE days and times, that can plead ignorance to how offensive and intimidating it is to Black Americans. If they're flying one, I have to assume that they don't care if it's intimidating...and maybe that's exactly what they do it for. I don't know. I sometimes wonder if they want to plant that flag on a hill and be ready to fight for it. Again...I don't know.
why would a battle flag of the 1860s bother you? I see battle flags of Spain in Latin countries honoring their heritage and conquistadors and Spain was pro-slavery and owned slaves a lot longer than the U.S. and none of the Latinos have this slavery guilt trip or have sensitive feelings like in the U.S. and they have many black residents and natives. You only see this slavery guilt trip in the U.S.
I think black Americans have more problems and things that affect them than a 1800'S battle flag like gang violence in their neighborhoods and a high crime rate.
I don't know about you but gang members walking down the streets in my neighborhood and attending the schools with my children is by far more intimidating than an 1800's battle flag that no one was alive when the war happened.
The rebel flag is traitorous symbolism. You would imagine it couldn’t actually be worse than that, it also represents an organized attempt to split a nation in half to maintain one of the worst acts of atrocity in human history. And let’s keep flying it cause we’re rebels.
Only white people could get away with such a thing without outright rioting. I mean people complain about blacks rioting because they don’t want to be in constant danger of being beaten within an inch of their life. Imagine the reaction if blacks flew a flag with decapitated dead white babies on it, on their houses, cars, clothes. Their excuse being that it represents all the dead black babies that died during slavery.
Idiocy..
^^^^^ we got another one.
the definition of treason: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
The South declared its independence. Just like Texas and California did from Mexico and every country on the planet. They didn't want to overthrow the U.S. government or take over the North and force them to be ruled by the South. They wanted to be independent and be left alone....... Learn the difference.
Slavery was legal before 1865, so the South wasn't doing anything illegal or unconstitutional by having slavery since our founding fathers wrote in the original constitution and the majority of them owned slaves.
are the Texas and California REPUBLIC flags traitorous symbolism? ...that's how silly your argument is. The rest of your post is just ignorant.
"The most outspoken political group promoting segregation in the United States was the Dixiecrat political party, who adopted the Confederate flag as their party's symbol in 1948. Before it was adopted by the Dixiecrats, the flag was not used as a political statement. The only times the Confederate flag was flown were at occasional football games (flown by southern universities), or during Civil War reenactments. However, after the Dixiecrats adopted the flag, others also began to use it to resist desegregation and equality and oppose the Civil Rights Movement.
I put a name to the pain ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
Here is the question. Why was the Confederate flag chosen as a symbol of resistance against Civil Rights?
"The States' Rights Democratic Party (usually called the Dixiecrats) was a short-lived segregationist political party in the United States."
And so now there is confusion ... can not help that in the least. KKK utilized white bed sheets, so now what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
1) The KKK never used bed sheets. They used robes and white pointy hats. Ironic because the KKK hated Catholics.
2) I never asked if the Dixiecrats were a short-lived party. I asked you to think about why the Confederate flag became the symbol of choice for those against civil rights? Why it because the symbol of choice for white supremacists outside of the south? And why it has become a symbol used by some working class/working poor whites who feel at odds with society?
3) And this is something you really need to understand. Why did so many Confederate monuments get erected during the Jim Crow era?
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I never asked if the Dixiecrats were a short-lived party. I asked you to think about why the Confederate flag became the symbol of choice for those against civil rights?
The States' Rights Democratic Party bold right there at the beginning ... they were also a segregationist party thus (I'm assuming here) the reason for the rebel flag to take on a whole other meaning ... The association came with the later ... not the former, 'state rights' and or rebellion against a government. If the Dixiecrat Party had used the "don't tread on me" flag, it too would have taken on a whole other meaning.
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And this is something you really need to understand. Why did so many Confederate monuments get erected during the Jim Crow era?
I do not know, but I have a question for you ... civil rights movement began in 1950's right ... issues with those monuments and memorabilia of the civil war did not occur until much more recent ... people didn't have an issue with them in the past ... why start one now?
Klansmen wore gigantic animal horns, fake beards, coon-skin caps, or polka-dotted paper hats; they imitated French accents or barnyard animals; they played guitars to serenade victims. Some Klansmen wore pointed hats suggestive of wizards, dunces, or Pierrots; some wore everyday winter hoods, pillowcases, or flour sacks on their heads. Many early Klansman also wore blackface, simultaneously scapegoating and mocking their victims.
Here there is sufficient evidence in the concrete that slavery was not the avowed cause of the conflict. If there was this uncertain notion of the cause of the war among northern sympathizers, how much more befogged must have been the minds of the southern slaves in the hands of men who imagined that they were fighting for the same principles involved in our earlier struggle with Great Britain! To the majority of the Negroes, as to all the South, the invading armies of the Union seemed to be ruthlessly attacking independent States, invading the beloved homeland and trampling upon all that these men held dear.
The loyalty of the slave while the master was away with the fighting forces of the Confederacy has been the making of many orators of an earlier day, echoes of which we often hear in the present. The Negroes were not only loyal in remaining at home and doing their duty but also in offering themselves for actual service in the Confederate army. [The Journal of Negro History Vol. 4, No. 3 (Jul., 1919), pp 239 - 253 (15 pages)]
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There are 253 pages of that Journal, all I give here is a snippet ... I would think that would be enough to cause someone to what to know more ... guess not. (not at gun point)
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I'm currently reading the article right now. Have you read the whole journal? There are 253 pages.
There is sufficient evidence that slavery was a major cause. Not the only cause, but one of the biggest. States rights was part of it. However, some of the issue behind states' rights had to do with slavery. Go talk to the residents of Kansas about that.
Of course some slaves were loyal to their masters. The master knew how to instill fear to keep slaves loyal. Many slaves went to fight for the Union. Far more than those who fought for the Confederacy. There were instances of Black slaves being forced to fight at gun point by their masters. I've looked this up. I study these things because I know there are enough Confederate sympathizers to go around. My point is to prove them wrong.
And I know about White women who did nice things for Black people, to try and help them out. There were White missionaries from the North who sought to help former slaves get educated and do well in the new South. That does not negate the CONFEDERATE CAUSE. Charles Wesley says slavery was not a primary cause.
You go on to mention the Articles of Succession and I'm not there yet, so lets in keeping this discussion as least confusing as we can, just go with the document above. "The Employment of Negroes as Soldiers in the Confederate Army"
I have not read the whole journal, as I have yet to find all of it. That, that I am referencing to in this discussion is residual finding of cross referencing material from the official documentation Cornell University Library collection: "Making of America Collection" ...
Just so we are clear, my time ... most of which is spent working, not looking at civil war documentations and c-d data. I am visiting with you in my spare time, which there really isn't a lot of it, these days. That is why I keep using the same material. It isn't that there isn't more available to evaluate, is this is all I have to date as the research is, time consuming. I found that booklet of the much larger Volume in the history of my browser from my last visit to the Cornell University Library.
I read the full 15 pages of, Charles Wesley, part which he gives (in tiny print at bottom of each page) his citations. If you read the article in full detail, you will find this: (i emphasis in bold)
General W. S. Harney, commanding in Missouri, responded to the claims of slaveholders to the return of runaway slaves with the words: "Already, since the commencement of these unhappy disturbances, slaves have escaped from their owners and have sought refuge in the camps of the United States troops -from the Northern States, and commanded by a Northern General. They were carefully sent back to their owners."
General D.C. Buell, commanding in Tennessee, in reply to the same demands stated: "Several application have been made to me by persons whose servants have been found in our camps; and in every instance that I know of, the master has removed his servant and taken him away." William Wells Brown, The Negro in the Rebellion, pp.57-58
Secretary Seddon, War Department, wrote: "They [the Negroes] have, besides, the homes they value, the families they love, and the masters they respect and depend on to defend and protect against the savagery and devastation of the enemy." --Official Rebellion Records, Series IV, Voll. III, pp. 761-762.
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Then there is this, that he writes:
In 1862, Florida Legislature conferred authority upon the Governor to impress slaves for military purposes, if so authorized by the Confederate Government. The owners of the slaves were to be compensated for this labor, and in turn they were to furnish one good suit of clothes for each of the slaves impressed. The wages were not to exceed twenty-five dollars a month. The Confederate Congress provided by law in February, 1864, for the impressment of 20,000 slaves for menial service in the Confederate army. President Davis was so satisfied with their labor that he suggested, in his annual message, November, 1864, that this number should be increased to 40,000, with the promise of emancipation at the end of their service.
Seddon, the Secretary of War, as to advisability of arming slaves, General Howell Cobb presented the point of view of one group of the Confederates, when he opposed the measure to arm the Negroes <snip> "If slaves make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong."
The opposite point of view was expressed by the group of southerns led by General Pat Cleburne who in a petition presented to General Joseph E. Johnson by several Confederate Officers wrote: Will the slaves fight? ---the experience of this war has been so far, that half-trained Negroes have fought as bravely as many half-trained Yankees". J.P. Benjamin, Secretary of State, urged that the slave would be certainly made to fight against them, is southerners failed to arm them for southern defense. He advocated also the emancipation of those who would fight; if they should fight for southern freedom. According to Benjamin, they were entitled to their own.
In a letter to President Davis, another argued that since the Negro had been used from the outset of the war to defend the South by raising provisions for the army, that the sword and musket be put in his hands, and concluding the correspondent added: "I would not make a soldier of the Negro if it could be helped, but we are reduced to this last resort." Sam Clayton of Georgia wrote: The recruits should come from our Negroes, nowhere else. We should away with pride of opinion, away with false pride, and promptly take hold of all the means God has placed within our reach to help us through this struggle --- a war for the right of self-government. Some people say that Negroes will not fight. I say they will fight. They fought at Ocean Pond (Olustee, Fla.), Honey Hill and other places. The enemy fights us with Negroes, and they will do very well to fight the Yankees.
Upon the recommendation of General Lee and in his opinion that they would make good soldiers the approval of President Davis an act was passed by the Congress, March 13, 1865, enrolling slaves in the Confederate army. Each State was to furnish a quota of total 300,000. The language used imply also that volunteering made one a freedman.
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You're right, official they were not enrolled as soldiers into the Confederate Army until 1865, but unofficially they were with them all along. Arming them in 1865 was like closing the door after the cows got out. Davis knew that in hind-sight.
I haven't found a pay roster either. And I think we both know why some people keep pushing the "Black Confederates" narrative. There is a desperation to paint the Confederate cause as a noble, morally sound cause.
Quote:
I haven't found a pay roster either.
That is because you are not looking in the right place. and you keep saying they took off to fight for the union army ... your eyes must glaze over when I respond to your posts, so I will show you one more time ...
"Union soldiers robbed, raped and murdered Free Black and slave Southerners they had come to "emancipate." Union "recruiters" hunted, kidnapped and tortured Black Southerners to compel them to serve in the Union Army. At the Battle of the Crater white Union soldiers bayoneted retreating Black Union soldiers and the 54th Massachusetts was intentionally fired upon by Union Maine troops while assaulting Battery Wagner. The Federal Official Records and memoirs of the USCT document all of these war crimes."
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If you want to know of the pay roster, you'll find that documented at The Federal Official Records. And if you think they ran off to join those that were trying to kill them, somethings wrong there. The treatment of the black union soldiers, was horrific in comparison.
The black confederate soldiers pay was paid to their owner, but ... it seems that I came across those that were 'officially' recognized as army, were paid, direct. When I find that documented, trust, I will link you up. That would show up documented in the Federal War Records anytime after, March 1865, if you want to beat me to the punch line.
I do not know, but I have a question for you ... civil rights movement began in 1950's right ... issues with those monuments and memorabilia of the civil war did not occur until much more recent ... people didn't have an issue with them in the past ... why start one now?
Well, did you even stop to think that maybe, just maybe, if black persons in those days decided to try objecting to Confederate monuments back then, perhaps someone might threaten them with bodily harm back then? C'mon now. That's a very disingenuous point you're making.
And today, there is enough political clout to push for it now.
...but I have a question for you ... civil rights movement began in 1950's right ... issues with those monuments and memorabilia of the civil war did not occur until much more recent ... people didn't have an issue with them in the past ... why start one now?
Wow. Really. A lot of the civil rights monuments started going up when the civil rights movement started. The flag over the South Carolina State House was raised around this time directly because of the civil rights moment. I'm pretty sure a lot of African Americans had issues with the monuments and flags going up. But they didn't have nearly the clout they have today and were trying really hard not to get killed in the streets due to demanding more freedom and rights.
Well, this is the thing. It should not be a surprise that African-Americans don't view the Confederate flag in a positive light. The thing is, trying to make it look like Black people must be crazy for viewing the Confederate flag that way is quite commonplace. Alot of people don't care to ask WHY. You and me know why, but many people don't bother to ask why. Some probably know why but pretend they don't.
I don't think it comes as a surprise that African Americans do not view the Confederate States of America in a positive light.
I think this is a powerful thread because it illustrates what happened shortly after the American Civil War, & after President Lincoln's assassination. It's how the 'Lost Cause' mythologies came to be foisted upon the United States of America.
Some folks disregard dismiss deny what the CSA stood for before the War & then (blissfully?) glom onto only what was said afterwards. In this sense, the CSA actually won the War, however not on the battlefield. The CSA fought to protect, preserve & expand their 'peculiar' institution & their 'way of life' of white supremacy. This is their heritage. It wasn't about hatred, it was about protecting, preserving & expanding their view that white folks were superior to black folks. It wasn't that black people were different than white people ... they were less than. This is the heritage they wanted everyone to accept. Why was the issue of returning enslaved people to their rightful 'owners' so contentious? The state of VA sued the state of NY over this issue. The CSA could not, or would not, be appeased & so there was War. They still couldn't be appeased after the war, & so went ahead to reinstate the Black Codes, Jim Crow era laws, & resisted the Civil Rights Movement of the 50s, 60s & so on ... . The American Civil War.
It's still being fought.
You're right to refer to the 'gaslighting' & 'crazy making' when it comes to expecting American folks to view the whitewashed history as having much or anything to do with the realities. African Americans, both then & now, are unrealistically expected to view these realities from the 'other' perspective when it was surely not healthy for them to do so back then. Not any more healthy would it be to do so in the present day.
Last edited by ChiGeekGuest; 02-12-2019 at 06:37 AM..
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they were also a segregationist party thus (I'm assuming here) the reason for the rebel flag to take on a whole other meaning ... The association came with the later ... not the former, 'state rights' and or rebellion against a government. If the Dixiecrat Party had used the "don't tread on me" flag, it too would have taken on a whole other meaning. 
