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if Lincoln and the North had no intentions of abolishing slavery in the South and they passed the Corwin Amendment that basically said:
"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment
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Hey Bro,
Just because you can come up with one paragraph doesn't mean it means what you say in context.
How many TENS OF THOUSANDS of Lincoln's words in the debate and in other matters do you want me to quote? We know the South has largely controlled Congress and the Gubment for much of history...that isn't the topic being debated.
So you think everything Lincoln said in the famous debates.....BEFORE he was POTUS...let alone the Cooper Union and other speeches, is not admissible as evidence? That's fantastic.
Obviously he was a politician. Rome wasn't built...nor destroyed in a day. But it was very clear to everyone what Lincoln represented and it had nothing to do with "pay your taxes or we'll invade".
"He ends by saying that Republicans, if they cannot end slavery where it exists, must fight through their votes to prevent its expansion. "
"There is a judgment and a feeling against slavery in this nation, which cast at least a million and a half of votes. You cannot destroy that judgment and feeling—that sentiment—by breaking up the political organization which rallies around it."
As a Catholic, I guess I missed the white robe and pointy hat memo. Do tell, G_M. I'm confused.
I'm Catholic too. Before I converted to the Catholic faith I never knew that the pointy hats and white robes were used by some Catholic brotherhoods in Spain. The KKK started using those clothes to make fun of Catholics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capirote
Let's start with some basic agreements. The Founding of the USA was based largely on selfishness...that is, why have 1/2 a loaf when you have have all of it? Just a few years before the founding, Ben Franklin and friends were asking the King to give them Ohio....and if the King had said yes, chances are the USA never would have been formed (at that time).
Now, onto some finer points. The Founders knew slavery was a problem...just like we know today that Health Care, Debt, Forever Wars, the Drug War, etc. are problems. Knowing about problems doesn't solve them.
The fact that they banned the Slave Trade while still alive (most of them - 1808) negates your point. It was pretty much just a "pass the buck" situation and the difficulty of Constitutional Amendments made it impossible to ban it.
The North OBVIOUSLY didn't need the money since the biggest boom in our history was the century AFTER slaves were freed. Inconvenient, I know, but still true.
You seem to pass right over "all men are created equal" and such things. If that was the foundation and first words of their declarations.....well, throwing it in the trash (as you have done) doesn't quite match reality.
Slavery in terms of numbers was not normal in all of the 13 colonies, nor in the 33 states that existed by 1860. The numbers were heavily skewed toward just a handful of those 33.
Virginia itself had 42% of all slaves....SC and GA had similar vast populations and that's about it. In 1810 (not long after the Constitution), MA. had ZERO slaves and VA. close to 400,000.
Obviously much of the South was dragged into the Civil War by the few states that had the really big numbers....economic interests and all. It wasn't an accident that SC started the mess.
ANY way you look at it - since the Mother Country and Crown abolished it well before the Civil War, the idea of it being normal or acceptable doesn't float other than in a backwards nation (or part of one).
Don't mix your opinions with historical facts and don't get personal here and suggesting that I don't view blacks as equals. Don't get emotional when you debate history.
The Majority of the Founding Fathers never said slavery was a problem, most of them owned slaves (2/3) !!!
Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Charles Carrol, Samuel Chase, Patrick Henry, John Jay, Richard Henry Lee, Charles Pickney, Benjamin Rush, Edward Rutledge, Button Gwinnett owned slaves........1/3 of the founding fathers didn't own slaves: John Adams, Samuel Adams, Oliver Ellsworth, Alexander Hamilton, Robert Paine, Thomas Paine, Roger Sherman.
before the Civil War, the federal government was in debt. That's the reason Lincoln didn't want to let go of the South. He needed the taxes from the South to pay the debt and expenses and to transform the North into an industrial economy, that cost money.......That's the reason he didn't care and didn't want and didn't have the will to abolish slavery and supported the Corwin Amendment as long that the South return to the Union and pay their taxes.
Just because you can come up with one paragraph doesn't mean it means what you say in context.
How many TENS OF THOUSANDS of Lincoln's words in the debate and in other matters do you want me to quote? We know the South has largely controlled Congress and the Gubment for much of history...that isn't the topic being debated.
So you think everything Lincoln said in the famous debates.....BEFORE he was POTUS...let alone the Cooper Union and other speeches, is not admissible as evidence? That's fantastic.
Obviously he was a politician. Rome wasn't built...nor destroyed in a day. But it was very clear to everyone what Lincoln represented and it had nothing to do with "pay your taxes or we'll invade".
"He ends by saying that Republicans, if they cannot end slavery where it exists, must fight through their votes to prevent its expansion. "
"There is a judgment and a feeling against slavery in this nation, which cast at least a million and a half of votes. You cannot destroy that judgment and feeling—that sentiment—by breaking up the political organization which rallies around it."
so why would Lincoln fight a war to keep the South in the Union if it wasn't about money and resources?.......it sure wasn't to abolish slavery.
you write a lot and don't say much, why would Lincoln want to keep the South in the Union when he and the North made them an offer to keep slavery legal with the Corwin Amendment?
Slavery was legal when Lincoln took office. He had no intention of abolishing slavery. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the votes and he didn't have the will...........so explain to me why would Lincoln want to force the South back in the Union by war if you say it wasn't about money and resources?.......is there another reason to crush independence movements?
I rarely wade into the politics forum...but on this issue, I'll take a dive.
My GGGrandmother was full blood Cherokee, and she, and 2 of her children were forced onto the Trail of Tears, and moved from Georgia to Oklahoma, by the government. Somewhere along the journey, she met and married my GGG Grandfather, and they settled in Oklahoma, and had several more children. My GGG grandfather was a soldier tasked with getting people to Oklahoma safely.
A lot of soldiers, at that time, felt that the moving of people off their land and relocating them was an immoral act, my GGGgrandfather included, and he got out of the service as soon as he was able.
When the Civil War came around, my ancestors, and most of the people around the area fought on the Confederate side. They were not fans of the Union. War is an ugly thing. Whatever 'side' you happen to be on. People can do heroic things, and people can do despicable things...on both sides.
While the men were off fighting the war, Union soldiers would come around to 'enlist' the boys that were too young to fight. It was well understood that these boys would not be enlisted. They would be killed, so that they couldn't grow up to fight the Union.
It might very well be that Confederate soldiers were guilty of the same thing. But that wasn't the reality that my GGG grandmother had to live with. By this point, she was a widow, and while some of her sons were off fighting in the war, her younger ones were at home with her. Sometimes she had to hide them in a cave for days at a time. Sometimes, she hid them in plain sight, dressing them up like girls.
She died in jail, for hiding her kids from the Union army. She got sick, and she died. She was 42 at the time.
So, all that to say, for a good portion of the population, it wasn't about slavery. It was about rebellion. It was about no sympathies for the Union Army.
When I was growing up, the Confederate flag represented rebellion. Kind of like the "Don't Tread on Me" flag. Heck, even Billy Idol had a confederate flag on his guitar, as he sang "WITH A REBEL YELL SHE CRIED MORE MORE MORE!" It was about being a rebel.
But, even Billy Idol came to understand that the Confederate flag was offensive and oppressive to another segment of the population. And I understand that.
I don't own a Confederate flag. I'm bothered when I see one flying somewhere. I don't think there are too many people, in THESE days and times, that can plead ignorance to how offensive and intimidating it is to Black Americans. If they're flying one, I have to assume that they don't care if it's intimidating...and maybe that's exactly what they do it for. I don't know. I sometimes wonder if they want to plant that flag on a hill and be ready to fight for it. Again...I don't know.
I don't own a Confederate flag. I'm bothered when I see one flying somewhere. I don't think there are too many people, in THESE days and times, that can plead ignorance to how offensive and intimidating it is to Black Americans. If they're flying one, I have to assume that they don't care if it's intimidating...and maybe that's exactly what they do it for. I don't know. I sometimes wonder if they want to plant that flag on a hill and be ready to fight for it. Again...I don't know.
I'm Catholic too. Before I converted to the Catholic faith I never knew that the pointy hats and white robes were used by some Catholic brotherhoods in Spain. The KKK started using those clothes to make fun of Catholics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capirote
The confederate flag is the flag of traitors who wanted America torn in half so they could keep their slaves. The only states rights issue that really mattered to them was a right for states to keep slavery intact. Multiple states were angry that the federal government did not fully enforce the federal slave act, which would have required the federal govt to force free states to return slaves that escaped slave states.
The confederate flag being displayed today is nothing more than a symbol of racist, butt hurt losers who wish the south would have won so they could be as racist as they want. There are still plenty of southerners who like to mumble about the south is gonna rise again, a clear sign you are dealing with a racist idiot traitor who clings to the ideals of the traitor flag.
so why would Lincoln fight a war to keep the South in the Union if it wasn't about money and resources?.......it sure wasn't to abolish slavery.
you write a lot and don't say much, why would Lincoln want to keep the South in the Union when he and the North made them an offer to keep slavery legal with the Corwin Amendment?
Slavery was legal when Lincoln took office. He had no intention of abolishing slavery. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the votes and he didn't have the will...........so explain to me why would Lincoln want to force the South back in the Union by war if you say it wasn't about money and resources?.......is there another reason to crush independence movements?
Apparently you are not interested in finding out for yourself. History contains nuances. You also skew your "conclusions"......
It WAS to abolish the spread of slavery. I gave you his quote. And it WAS to attempt, through lawful means, to stop the institution.
The South refused to entertain either and instead fired on a Federal Fort, staring the war.
Preservation of the Union was foremost in his mind...and preservation of it required that it use the actual words of the Founders (All men are created equal) as an eventual goal. Slavery stood in the way of our future.
Apparently you are not interested in finding out for yourself. History contains nuances. You also skew your "conclusions"......
It WAS to abolish the spread of slavery. I gave you his quote. And it WAS to attempt, through lawful means, to stop the institution.
The South refused to entertain either and instead fired on a Federal Fort, staring the war.
Preservation of the Union was foremost in his mind...and preservation of it required that it use the actual words of the Founders (All men are created equal) as an eventual goal. Slavery stood in the way of our future.
there you go again making things up....If the North and Lincoln supported and passed the Corwin Amendment so the South returns to the Union then that kills the reason to "ABOLISH the spread of slavery",......actions speak louder than words.
Slavery was a constitutional right. Lincoln couldn't stop the spread of it because he didn't want to, he didn't have constitutional powers to abolish it, he didn't have the votes to amend the constitution and he didn't have the will. He wasn't going to start a war over it, he said it many times since he was sworn in
Lincoln on his first inaugural address on March 4 1861, said of the Corwin Amendment
Quote:
I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service ... holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.
Lincoln's deal to the South was: slavery is a state's right and the federal government could never interfere and we will put it in black and white in details in the constitution with the Corwin Amendment. He just wanted the South back in the Union to collect taxes and control the South's economy. When the South refused, Lincoln went tyrant on them.
if you think Lincoln and the majority in the North believed blacks as equals as white men then you didn't pay attention in history class. Lincoln never viewed blacks as equals and he never used that for his reasons for the war.......if he did, the North would have shot him dead.
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