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In my experience, it's a good deal easier to avoid impromptu, government-funded Shakespeare productions than it is to avoid statues in the public square. As for private productions, well - I am not aware of anyone insisting that people can't decorate their private property with as many Lee statues as there's room for.
And it's an interesting coincidence that Shylock has been played as a sympathetic character since roughly the 1850s. A timeframe that resonates with this debate, don't you think?
A "Shylock" in nomenclature is still a predator and a leech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA
Besides, it's not as if you can't admire the artistry even if you disagree with the message. Triumph of the Will is an amazing example of the film-maker's craft, even though the message is despicable. We just don't play it with the intent of glorifying the message. We study it, put it in perspective, establish a context to better understand how competent art can serve the wrong purpose. As we should with Lee's statues.
I'm not familiar with "Triumph of the Will." Is it a movie?
For the reason that grievance does not create advancement. It actually is an on-topic contra-example. What do you want, a thread where everyone robotically condemns his taking arms against his country? Solving that problem of the past does very little for the people of today.
And bringing red herrings into the discussion does nothing but create distractions. If you think this topic is irrelevant, then go start your own thread.
Quite ironic when you think about it. Lee didn't want statues in his likeness, but we have people today who believe Robert E. Lee deserves a statue in his honor, in a public place of honor no less.
Fast forward to the US and we have the American Taliban doing the same. Banning books, "cancel culture" and tearing down statues is what totalitarians do, not free people who welcome open discourse. .
The difference is...
the Taliban was totally DESTROYING all the priceless antiquities, statues and historic sites like the entire ancient city they BLEW UP and destroyed, here statues are being removed and just *MOVED* to a different location, in some cases museums are the destination where the CONTEXT is better told and understood, rather than a big statue few know anything about other than it being some guy on a horse sitting in front of the state capitol or in a park under some trees.
I dont know why you are seeming so upset over some old statues sitting in a park or whatever, they depict long DEAD people that nobody alive today has any direct connection to that knew them when they were alive or had any interaction with them.
As a sculptor I ADORE those 19th century bronze equestrian monuments, I know how much time and costs went into making each- the artist could spend an entire year or two, even longer making original models for approval, it's a huge undertaking of time and money and every one of those bronze statues are worth a lot of money. To replicate one of them today would be well into 6 figures for a small one, and up into 7 figures, but things depicting despots and mass murderers or other now unsavory people should be put in context in museums where that is the best place to do it.
I'd gladly have one of them in my backyard just to admire the horse sculpture.
There is or was a statue of Methodist minister/Col John Chivington, the mass murderer of Native American Indians who was infamously quoted saying "nits make lice" when speaking of Native American indian CHILDREN, that was how he was able to order his troops to murder the 600 unarmed, known peaceful mostly women, children and elders at Sand Creek, what became known as the "Sand Creek MASSACRE" Google that and all of the gory, sickening details of what was done, including cutting off body parts as souvenirs and striking down people waving white flags will come up, should we today HAVE a glorifying statue to a monster like Chivington?
The people even named Chivington Colorado after that monster!
It was a fact that the Indians there had an American flag given to them by Abraham Lincoln, who told them as long as they flew it over their lodge they would be SAFE, they soon found out a cloth flag, even one from Lincoln himself offered no protection whatsoever!
In Boston there's the Shaw memorial by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, it's made of solid bronze about 20 feet across and depicts Col Shaw leading his all black regiment- most all of them including Shaw were killed. Saint-Gaudens didnt just sculpt a statue, he had living black men come to his studio so he could sketch and model their faces accurately, so each soldier on the monument depicts an actual person not generic soldiers. Saint-gaudens had the contract to make this monument, but as he worked he kept revising and revising and making it more "3D" instead of flat, the board was very frustrated with how long it was taking- it took 14 years!
Quote:
He hired African American men to pose, and modeled about 40 different heads to use as studies. His concern for accuracy also extended to the clothing and accoutrements.
Saint-Gaudens, however, worked slowly. A committee member complained in 1894, ". . . that bronze is wanted pretty damned quick! People are grumbling for it, the city howling for it, and most of the committee have become toothless waiting for it!" It would still be three more years until the unveiling.
So none of these monuments are "just" statues to be discarded, but mass murderers's statues dont belong in a state capital etc., put them in a museum in context with educational aids with them
And bringing red herrings into the discussion does nothing but create distractions. If you think this topic is irrelevant, then go start your own thread.
I have no problems with you as a poster. I do not like being ordered around by anyone other than a moderator or super-moderator.
In my experience, it's a good deal easier to avoid impromptu, government-funded Shakespeare productions than it is to avoid statues in the public square. As for private productions, well - I am not aware of anyone insisting that people can't decorate their private property with as many Lee statues as there's room for.
And it's an interesting coincidence that Shylock has been played as a sympathetic character since roughly the 1850s. A timeframe that resonates with this debate, don't you think?
While I thoroughly disagree with you most of the time and do here, you make intelligent points. The ability to not attend a performance, but having to walk past a statue is a distinction. But what if the play is taught in 10th Grade English? As a Jewish parent I would have no problem though I think the play's premise is somewhere between questionable and despicable.
My main beef is obviously not with Merchant of Venice or Shakespeare; it is a leader-fed creation of grievances that few actual people think twice about in the course of the day.
the Taliban was totally DESTROYING all the priceless antiquities, statues and historic sites like the entire ancient city they BLEW UP and destroyed, here statues are being removed and just *MOVED* to a different location, in some cases museums are the destination where the CONTEXT is better told and understood, rather than a big statue few know anything about other than it being some guy on a horse sitting in front of the state capitol or in a park under some trees.
I dont know why you are seeming so upset over some old statues sitting in a park or whatever, they depict long DEAD people that nobody alive today has any direct connection to that knew them when they were alive or had any interaction with them.
As a sculptor I ADORE those 19th century bronze equestrian monuments, I know how much time and costs went into making each- the artist could spend an entire year or two, even longer making original models for approval, it's a huge undertaking of time and money and every one of those bronze statues are worth a lot of money. To replicate one of them today would be well into 6 figures for a small one, and up into 7 figures, but things depicting despots and mass murderers or other now unsavory people should be put in context in museums where that is the best place to do it.
I'd gladly have one of them in my backyard just to admire the horse sculpture.
There is or was a statue of Methodist minister/Col John Chivington, the mass murderer of Native American Indians who was infamously quoted saying "nits make lice" when speaking of Native American indian CHILDREN, that was how he was able to order his troops to murder the 600 unarmed, known peaceful mostly women, children and elders at Sand Creek, what became known as the "Sand Creek MASSACRE" Google that and all of the gory, sickening details of what was done, including cutting off body parts as souvenirs and striking down people waving white flags will come up, should we today HAVE a glorifying statue to a monster like Chivington?
The people even named Chivington Colorado after that monster!
It was a fact that the Indians there had an American flag given to them by Abraham Lincoln, who told them as long as they flew it over their lodge they would be SAFE, they soon found out a cloth flag, even one from Lincoln himself offered no protection whatsoever!
In Boston there's the Shaw memorial by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, it's made of solid bronze about 20 feet across and depicts Col Shaw leading his all black regiment- most all of them including Shaw were killed. Saint-Gaudens didnt just sculpt a statue, he had living black men come to his studio so he could sketch and model their faces accurately, so each soldier on the monument depicts an actual person not generic soldiers. Saint-gaudens had the contract to make this monument, but as he worked he kept revising and revising and making it more "3D" instead of flat, the board was very frustrated with how long it was taking- it took 14 years!
So none of these monuments are "just" statues to be discarded, but mass murderers's statues dont belong in a state capital etc., put them in a museum in context with educational aids with them
Mr. Saint-Gaudens was not only an amazing Artist, he was prescient.
Quote:
"My own delay I excuse on the ground that a sculptor's work endures for so long that it is next to a crime for him to neglect to do everything that lies in his power to execute a result that will not be a disgrace. There is something extraordinarily irritating, when it is not ludicrous, in a bad statue. It is plastered up before the world to stick and stick for centuries, while man and nations pass away. A poor picture goes into the garret, books are forgotten, but the bronze remains to accuse or shame the populace and perpetuate one of our various idiocies."
Re: bold: evidence to support this extraordinary claim.
Yes but this is all known. If you take environmental studies in high school you would learn all this as well.
Northern industry had high demand for cotton due to the concentration of textile mills. The soil in the south was highly conducive of heavy water crops, so that is where the crops were grown.
Northern industrialists did not have easy buyers otherwise, so the south was specialized with two crops (cotton and rice).
Foraging fell to the way side, and poor blacks/whites could no longer hunt the common forests. Blacks who originally could build lodging and hunt had to work longer hours for longer periods in the month (rather than just waiting for harvest).
This came from the north, in that without northern industry you would not see the brutal slavery tied with tidal farming and cotton growers.
This is not the natural disposition of the antebellum south, king cotton was just propaganda for foolish land owners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest
Consider his afflictions.
Imagine his difficulties in understanding the brilliance of someone like Stephen Hawkins fr'instance.
I still think one of his biggest obstacles is overcoming the underlying nonsensical libertarian ideology. It's rather stunning in its idiotic impotent irrelevance. Implausible also.
You have no clue what you're talking about, I am not a libertarian. How many times do I have to tell you.
It's not being done for that reason. It's being done as a recognition that Robert E. Lee doesn't deserve to be revered or venerated. If you want those statues to stay up, at least say so instead of bringing in a red herring argument.
What are you going to replace it with, a parking lot?
Statues are the few forms of public work left in this country, the only non-racist figure you can create is that of consumption.
Money sees no color, perhaps a shopping mall would be an improvement?
It is a matter of afflictions, but different ones. What I see is alot of mental gymnastics. What I see is someone who gaslights in the classic sense. Telling lies, weaving a web around those lies, and using those lies to try and making those that disagree with him feel stupid. Or in my case, reading such lies are just exhausting. Lying about slavery, lying about what Black Americans had to go through in the Antebellum South AND the Jim Crow South. Having to spend more time proving someone out to be a liar than actually talking about why statues to Robert E. Lee have no place in American society.
Lying about what, where is the lie?
You can't step back and say everything is a lie.
Bringing up annual income without factor COL, or non-financial aspects of living standards is not a rebuttal.
Black culture was created in the south, in the antebellum south. Slaves had a society before cotton farming, and today as freed people they do better in ex-confederacy than the industrial north.
You can say freedom is greater than slavery, that is your choice. But saying that slavery in every form is evil is subjective, as history has shown us.
If anything northern industrialists were the one's who ruined the stable economy/traditionalism before global capitalism.
So take Lee's statue down, but it's important to know what you'd replace it with. A monument to consumerism? To blacks? Then who, what is more important to the south?
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