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For me, the glaring bottom line is that most people today do not understand what a vaccine is. It's hard to comprehend why they don't understand.
Hate to break it to you, but you're the one not having the facts on your side here.
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But at it's core, a vaccine protects the person who gets it (assuming it is effective) against the disease it is made to inoculate against. No more, no less.
It also keeps that person from spreading the disease. This is bit you seem to have a hard time with. You're not just protecting yourself, you're keeping the virus from propagating.
The formula for herd immunity is trivial: 1-1/R0 - with R0 being the average number of people being infected by each infected person. Obviously, getting R0 as low as possible is the trick. People who fail to take precautions are more likely to get infected or to spread infection, keeping R0 high. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get the virus, and that pushes R0 down. So yes, you being vaccinated helps your neighbor - and him being vaccinated helps you.
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It's like a shield. If I'm carrying a shield, that shield does not protect the guy standing a hundred yards away from an incoming arrow or blow from a sword.
Bad analogy - because it doesn't take propagation into account. Imagine that being struck by an enemy arrow turns a soldier on your side into a soldier on the enemy's side. Now, are you comfy standing next to the guy who refuses to don armor? One stray arrow and he'll be going at you. And conversely, your armor protects the guy next to you. If an enemy arrow goes "clonk" and doesn't penetrate. you remain on his side, not the enemy's. If you're not wearing armor, you can turn sides at any moment. That makes you - well, not the sort of guy you want in your ranks, really.
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This is not a collectivist thing.
It completely is. As I said, a virus doesn't care about collectivism and individualism. It propagates really well in populations with a low percentage of protected hosts, and really badly in a population with a high percentage of protected hosts. Getting that percentage up is a shared responsibility. Yes, those exist.
What the above misses is the propensity for coronaviruses to mutate, as this one obviously already has. So a very important reason to vaccinate everyone in the world as quickly as possible, is to reduce the size of the active pool of virus out there. That lessens the chance of a more pathogenic variant emerging.
So, #zerocovid, right? That's your end game? Locking down the whole country over a handful of "cases," that's what you want?
If not, then what's the level of "active pool of virus" you think we need to get to?
That won't stop anytime soon because of mutations and the yet to be determined duration of natural and vaccine induced immunities. We might have to settle for a situation like Influenza. Not the best of worlds, but a whole lot better than continued and rampant Covid 19.
I don't think it will ever stop. This is not like SARS that disappeared as quick as it appeared.
IMO this is more like 1918 where this will evolve over time and become less deadly.
My bigger personal concern is how many labs now have vials of the original, more lethal, virus stashed away for research purposes.....
There is a natural order to things and all the vaccines in the world won't change it.
Nonsense. It's the natural order to die in an extremely unpleasant way from lockjaw if you get soil bacteria in a wound. So we came up with tetanus vaccines. Now we don't.
Nonsense. It's the natural order to die in an extremely unpleasant way from lockjaw if you get soil bacteria in a wound. So we came up with tetanus vaccines. Now we don't.
You may think science can overcome Mother Nature but I don't. We're not discussing lockjaw but covid.
So, #zerocovid, right? That's your end game? Locking down the whole country over a handful of "cases," that's what you want?
If not, then what's the level of "active pool of virus" you think we need to get to?
IMO when we reach the approximate numbers of hospitalizations and deaths with Covid 19 as compared to Influenza we will be winding down the Pandemic.
However, new variants that bypass the vaccines could create substantial disruption again. This is why we need to reduce that virus pool size.
Most likely as with Influenza we will continue to customize the vaccines as necessary. Best guess yearly, could be longer. The mRNA vaccines put us way ahead of the Influenza game. They can be created in a matter of weeks.
You may think science can overcome Mother Nature but I don't. We're not discussing lockjaw but covid.
Science looked at Mother Nature's attempt to kill us with lockjaw, diphteria, smallpox and whatnot. Then science told Mother Nature to go take a hike. Why should Covid be different? We have better tools available, better weapons in our arsenal. Pseudophilosphical meanderings help absolutely no one.
IMO when we reach the approximate numbers of hospitalizations and deaths with Covid 19 as compared to Influenza we will be winding down the Pandemic.
However, new variants that bypass the vaccines could create substantial disruption again. This is why we need to reduce that virus pool size.
Most likely as with Influenza we will continue to customize the vaccines as necessary. Best guess yearly, could be longer. The mRNA vaccines put us way ahead of the Influenza game. They can be created in a matter of weeks.
Then we agree. Vaccinate a certain percentage of the population -- doesn't need to be anywhere near everyone -- and this basically turns into the flu. In my estimation, we're well on our way there.
Did smallpox mutate? Did any of the other diseases that we are all commonly vaccinated for mutate?
Viruses mutate. For many viral illnesses that vaccines exist we are fortunate that the vaccine protects against all of the variants.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
Epstein Barr virus is linked to several autoimmune diseases such as lupus. Herpes virus is linked to several autoimmune disease. Chronic fatigue syndrome is thought to be triggered by viruses.
Therefore, vaccines against those viruses could prevent those autoimmune diseases, right?
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Originally Posted by Hoonose
Aside from Influenza I know of no other that commonly mutate. That's why we get a newly formulated Influenza shot yearly. Please someone chime in if I'm missing another.
Well, they do mutate, it is just that the mutants do not evade the vaccine.
Flu what? That's not a common lifelong vaccination.
I've never had a flu shot and never will. I've had the flu probably half a dozen times over the years. I'm still alive. And before you ask: no, I wasn't around people during those times. I was in bed, sick. And stayed there until well.
Except you were spreading virus for a day before you knew you were sick.
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Originally Posted by ChrisC
Well, to be fair, I didn't specify which vaccines I was talking about.
For me, the glaring bottom line is that most people today do not understand what a vaccine is. It's hard to comprehend why they don't understand. All I can think of is the younger generation's inclination to view everything through the prism of collectivism. (since they've been indoctrinated to think that way from birth, like kamikazes)
But at it's core, a vaccine protects the person who gets it (assuming it is effective) against the disease it is made to inoculate against. No more, no less. It's like a shield. If I'm carrying a shield, that shield does not protect the guy standing a hundred yards away from an incoming arrow or blow from a sword. HE NEEDS his own shield. If he doesn't have that shield, it means squat to me. Because I have my shield. If I don't have my shield, I take my own chances... but again, that doesn't affect the guy standing a hundred yards from me.
This is not a collectivist thing. A vaccine is a one by one girding of "armor." Your armor does not protect me and mine does not protect you. It's interesting that any common serf in the middle ages would have understood this, but we can't today. Breathtaking, really. Now if one wants to argue that if we all have shields, our "army" is stronger. But that is another argument and not at all what I'm referencing in these posts.
Wrong. A formation of people with shields surrounding the person without a shield can protect the unshielded one.
Science looked at Mother Nature's attempt to kill us with lockjaw, diphteria, smallpox and whatnot. Then science told Mother Nature to go take a hike. Why should Covid be different? We have better tools available, better weapons in our arsenal. Pseudophilosphical meanderings help absolutely no one.
Because covid mutates, just like the flu.
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