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Actually, that's not it at all - you are incorrect.
I have never previously opposed nor do I now oppose the teaching of the ways in which Americans of African ancestry were maltreated. I have no opposition to the teaching of:
- The Trans-Atlantic Trade
- Slave codes
- Jim Crow/Black codes
- Lynching of black Americans
What was done to black Americans, whether in the early 18th Century or in 1850 or in 1955, was horrible. The pain, fear, hearbreak, and anguish African men and women experienced as they were chained, placed into ships, sent to a foreign land, and forced to work... I cannot imagine that absolute, raw, and immeasurable horror.
If those African men and women were alive today, they should receive some form of compensation, and a large-scale one. If those Africans who made deals with Europeans to have fellow Africans shipped as slaves were alive, they should be harshly punished, as should the European slave traders.
If the whites who lynched blacks were alive, they should be made to suffer, and that suffering should end with the death penalty.
But as you and I know, those people are all dead now. That can't be changed, and what was done to blacks can't be changed either.
If anything, "erasing" has been happening whenever and wherever leftists had their way. Taking down statues, for example. That's not going to change what happened 100, 150, 200, 300 years ago.
But if you wish to speak about ugly things that have happened in history, then let's look at what's happening now. The events of our time will be the history of the future. The election of President Trump. The terrorist BLM/Antifa riots of 2020. And so forth.
I was an adult when 9/11 happened. I was an adult when the Oklahoma City bombing happened. I was a young adult when Saddam Hussein was kicked out of Kuwait. Those were "current events" when they happened but today they are in history books.
The criminality perpetrated by members of the black underclass target blacks and other races. This is U.S. history happening right now. It's part of what's happening in this country as time goes on.
If you want history taught in wholeness, then look not only at that which was done to the group you are a part of. The true student of history must be willing to face historical facts which can provoke discomfort and unease. That applies to the history of all countries and it applies to students of history of all races.
People seem fine with the history of race as long as no one makes connections with the present. As long as they can segregate it in the long dead past, and make sure we all know was the fault of those horrible old racists who were just bad people. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad on them.
Do we ever reflect on what has happened with race relations SINCE 1964??
Do we ever reflect on that , maybe people in the past were not very different than people like us, caught in a SYSTEM they could not individually change, and lived their lives the best they could according to what they thought was right, prudent, and just?
And should we ever analyze the rationalizations they went through that kept the slavery and the Jim Crow apartheid system going for 400+ years?
Ever consider the kind of thinking they fell into that we need to be vigilant in avoiding? Ever consider that we may not be immune to racism just by virtue of being born in a different century, and so we need to know how to recognize it?
Do we ever do ANY of that? Or do we just say people in the past were stupid and racist and of course we know better now.?
Last edited by redguard57; 07-28-2021 at 01:51 PM..
People seem fine with the history of race as long as no one makes connections with the present. As long as they can segregate it in the long dead past, and make sure we all know was the fault of those horrible old racists who were just bad people. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad on them.
Do we ever reflect on what has happened with race relations SINCE 1964??
Do we ever reflect on that , maybe people in the past were not very different than people like us, caught in a SYSTEM they could not individually change, and lived their lives the best they could according to what they thought was right, prudent, and just?
And should we ever analyze the rationalizations they went through that kept the slavery and the Jim Crow apartheid system going for 400+ years?
Ever consider the kind of thinking they fell into that we need to be vigilant in avoiding? Ever consider that we may not be immune to racism just by virtue of being born in a different century, and so we need to know how to recognize it?
Do we ever do ANY of that? Or do we just say people in the past were stupid and racist and of course we know better now.?
Since 1964, race relations in this country have seen the acceptance by large swaths of society of institutionalized racism known as affirmative action, which punishes white and Asian high school seniors who are more qualified than black and brown students in being admitted to prestigious universities.
Since 1964, cultural Marxism has increasingly infiltrated American institutions and society, to the extent that many people of all races today firmly believe it is impossible for black people to be racist because cultural Marxism's penchant for bastardizing language has redefined racism as prejudice + power, and since blacks historically did not hold institutional power, they cannot be racist.
This irresponsible attitude leads to things like this:
In addition, since 1964, blacks have been elected as congresspersons, senators, mayors. There has been a black president. All this was unthinkable less than 100 years ago.
Since 1964, race relations in this country have seen the acceptance by large swaths of society of institutionalized racism known as affirmative action, which punishes white and Asian high school seniors who are more qualified than black and brown students in being admitted to prestigious universities.
Since 1964, cultural Marxism has increasingly infiltrated American institutions and society, to the extent that many people of all races today firmly believe it is impossible for black people to be racist because cultural Marxism's penchant for bastardizing language has redefined racism as prejudice + power, and since blacks historically did not hold institutional power, they cannot be racist.
This irresponsible attitude leads to things like this:
In addition, since 1964, blacks have been elected as congresspersons, senators, mayors. There has been a black president. All this was unthinkable less than 100 years ago.
Blacks were elected as congressmen during the Reconstruction period. What happened after that?
Yes, I suppose the election of Obama absolved all racial issues.
Actually, that's not it at all - you are incorrect.
I have never previously opposed nor do I now oppose the teaching of the ways in which Americans of African ancestry were maltreated. I have no opposition to the teaching of:
- The Trans-Atlantic Trade
- Slave codes
- Jim Crow/Black codes
- Lynching of black Americans
What was done to black Americans, whether in the early 18th Century or in 1850 or in 1955, was horrible. The pain, fear, hearbreak, and anguish African men and women experienced as they were chained, placed into ships, sent to a foreign land, and forced to work... I cannot imagine that absolute, raw, and immeasurable horror.
If those African men and women were alive today, they should receive some form of compensation, and a large-scale one. If those Africans who made deals with Europeans to have fellow Africans shipped as slaves were alive, they should be harshly punished, as should the European slave traders.
If the whites who lynched blacks were alive, they should be made to suffer, and that suffering should end with the death penalty.
But as you and I know, those people are all dead now. That can't be changed, and what was done to blacks can't be changed either.
If anything, "erasing" has been happening whenever and wherever leftists had their way. Taking down statues, for example. That's not going to change what happened 100, 150, 200, 300 years ago.
But if you wish to speak about ugly things that have happened in history, then let's look at what's happening now. The events of our time will be the history of the future. The election of President Trump. The terrorist BLM/Antifa riots of 2020. And so forth.
I was an adult when 9/11 happened. I was an adult when the Oklahoma City bombing happened. I was a young adult when Saddam Hussein was kicked out of Kuwait. Those were "current events" when they happened but today they are in history books.
The criminality perpetrated by members of the black underclass target blacks and other races. This is U.S. history happening right now. It's part of what's happening in this country as time goes on.
If you want history taught in wholeness, then look not only at that which was done to the group you are a part of. The true student of history must be willing to face historical facts which can provoke discomfort and unease. That applies to the history of all countries and it applies to students of history of all races.
there are people alive who went through jim crow. And the systemic stuff that happened to blacks don't just reset at birth. Groups of people become successful by having multiple successions of generations be successful. You people keep talking as if black people could just be successful one day after centuries of oppression. This is comedically silly that yall say this stuff with a straight face. Like i said, and i keep saying...yall want to start black american history at 1970. In your own post you act like oppression against black americans just stopped at around 1955, as if there was sort of huge reset or reparation that happened.
there are people alive who went through jim crow. And the systemic stuff that happened to blacks don't just reset at birth. Groups of people become successful by having multiple successions of generations be successful. You people keep talking as if black people could just be successful one day after centuries of oppression. This is comedically silly that yall say this stuff with a straight face. Like i said, and i keep saying...yall want to start black american history at 1970. In your own post you act like oppression against black americans just stopped at around 1955, as if there was sort of huge reset or reparation that happened.
When it comes to reparations - and I do not refer specifically to what the left specifies as reparations (to black Americans), but to the general idea of reparations - I am open to them if the victims are still alive and therefore, men and women who were actually made to suffer can be compensated.
This is why I agreed with the U.S. government giving money to elderly Japanese-Americans in the late 1980s. There were people who were alive then who were actually forced from their homes and sent to internment camps during World War II.
As such, the elderly black Americans who went through Jim Crow: they are more deserving of some form of compensatory measure than the average black person who is alive today, at least in theory.
Systemic things: look, it's been said to you here before, but: leading up to the 1960s, black Americans were making steady gains in education and employment. This does not mean that black household wealth, on average, would eventually be equal to the average household wealth of the richest white families, but for a people who had been literal slaves less than 100 years prior, the gains blacks were making were nothing short of stupendous, and a reflection of their inner strength and determination.
But if you're going to talk about what happened since the 1960s, welfare state policies and the proliferation of the attitude that men/husbands weren't needed had a highly destructive impact on black Americans. You know that 7 out of 10 black babies are born to an unwed mother and grow up without a father. This was not the case during Jim Crow.
Think about it - during a time institutionalized racism still existed, the black family was more intact than when the Civil Rights movement was pushing full steam ahead.
Now, back to CRT: I have already given you a very specific answer concerning my views on what aspects of U.S. history (in terms of what was done to blacks) should be taught. But I'm also in full support of people being told that black criminality is a huge problem which exhausts law-abiding Americans of all races.
And yes, it's a small % of blacks committing these crimes. Yes, it's the black underclass, not the black doctor or engineer or teacher or banker. I'm aware of that.
But if you want ONE aspect about U.S. history and society taught, are you ok with another? You should be. You want people to get the "full picture?" Give them all the facts and let them make their own conclusions.
People seem fine with the history of race as long as no one makes connections with the present. As long as they can segregate it in the long dead past, and make sure we all know was the fault of those horrible old racists who were just bad people. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad on them.
Do we ever reflect on what has happened with race relations SINCE 1964??
Do we ever reflect on that , maybe people in the past were not very different than people like us, caught in a SYSTEM they could not individually change, and lived their lives the best they could according to what they thought was right, prudent, and just?
And should we ever analyze the rationalizations they went through that kept the slavery and the Jim Crow apartheid system going for 400+ years?
Ever consider the kind of thinking they fell into that we need to be vigilant in avoiding? Ever consider that we may not be immune to racism just by virtue of being born in a different century, and so we need to know how to recognize it?
Do we ever do ANY of that? Or do we just say people in the past were stupid and racist and of course we know better now.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
People seem fine with the history of race as long as no one makes connections with the present. As long as they can segregate it in the long dead past, and make sure we all know was the fault of those horrible old racists who were just bad people. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad on them.
Do we ever reflect on what has happened with race relations SINCE 1964??
Do we ever reflect on that , maybe people in the past were not very different than people like us, caught in a SYSTEM they could not individually change, and lived their lives the best they could according to what they thought was right, prudent, and just?
What I see missing from (history) this discussion is 'culture' and understanding the differences within the lives of ordinary people, living ordinary lives, beyond that of politics. Slavery had been in existence for 3000 years; it was an acceptable social way of life, implemented by governments, long before 1619. To understand this a person has to go back to Biblical history and understand how government implemented it and how it was used in taxation of the people. Those living in ancient times did not agree (to know this is true, one has to read the Bible) with Slavery, but it was the law of the land. Now fast forward this 'culture" to 1619 and a new land. Same ancient culture, in modern day history and people trying to as they always had been, trying to figure it out. The one law that is bigger than man's law is, God for those people. God's law ordains Slavery, so now what? Are they doing something right or are they doing something wrong and who among them has the authority to judge? Throw into the middle of that a Black person that they have never seen before in their life and there in lays the question I always ask --- what did they know and when did they know it?
We are also talking about a time in American history, what the new government feared the most, was a foreign take over and here you have people bringing in --- foreigners. What could possibly go wrong? If people believed these foreigners were not a threat it could work --- so how do you get people who have never seen a black person in their life, to believe they are not a threat? You do what governments have been doing forever --- you teach them what you want them to know. Trust it isn't hard to get people to believe that a person who can not speak English, is not smart. Today we know better and we still think that way.
Culture is one of those things not taught in schools. I took humanities and philosophy in college in 1992 and the Instructor began the class by stating the percentage of the 'culture illiterate' population among educated people in the u.s. And while I can't remember or find that statistic, I believe it was a relatively high percentage. Knowing this the way I do, trying to get people to understand a culture that was here in the u.s. before air planes were invented is going to be tough. People born today, if they had been born 250 years ago, would have a different perspective. Since only wealthy people could afford to own a slave, understanding the disparities among government defined, class based on income, might lead to people having a different take on the past and apply that past to the present. A poor black person and a poor white person have one thing in common that they both can relate to and that's poverty. K-12 government education is going to address this right? Wealthy people have their own schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
And should we ever analyze the rationalizations they went through that kept the slavery and the Jim Crow apartheid system going for 400+ years?
imo, what kept slavery alive was the 3/5 compromise, which was decided the same the year 1787 that it was decided that the slave issue would not be addressed for 20 years, which was also decided the same year, as the First American Congress 1774 - 1789 decided not to import slaves, with the Southerns taking the lead on that vote. It's the power play, I've always seen, but I haven't nailed the particulars yet --- because I've been busy. Also the book I'm reading the author haven written it 40 years after the civil war assumes its reader understands the events and is not writing for an audience 160 years after the event. So research has been tedious. But that 3/5 is how in the political arena the Southern States or Slave States can maintain the number of delegates in the House of Representative. So this is where politics doesn't represent the people and their culture. Instead its a political power play with people caught in the middle.
Jim Crow, is more of the same play, taking place within the 100 years after the liberation of the Slaves. What I find interesting about this era is the move on the part of people. In that many did not migrate to the North. What we have though is the States laws in the North were against discrimination, but those in authority, it seems they were ignoring the laws. That is a fact not taught in American history, but people know it, just the same, because life's experiences is the greater teacher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
Do we ever do ANY of that? Or do we just say people in the past were stupid and racist and of course we know better now.?
What did they know and when did they know it? And there is a difference between political culture and social culture and in understanding that difference, that will answer that question. The anomaly are those within the social culture ignoring the law --- the people in the South were teaching black people to read, when it was against the law to do so.
Academic experts, including Crenshaw, say critical race theory is not what is being taught in K-12 education curriculums.
It's bad enough we are taught that slavery ended, when it did not, now we have this to contend with; I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers looking forward to an increase in revenue as these cases hit their desks.
Politics does not belong in schools. The Equity Alliance, should know better.
It's been awhile since my kids were in school and my daughter home schools the grand kids --- but I remember this test, just not what it's called. I remember it being a very important test to the school. If the kids do well on the test as it's reported to the State, it helps the schools ranking? or something. idk, I'm just wondering if the schools have given any thought as to taking time from the students to learn this CRT, how that will effect that all important test and the scores.
I know it is an important test to the schools, because my daughter was home sick one time on the day this test was to be given, and the school's principal tracked me down at work, to inform me she couldn't miss school that day. It seems her scoring on the test would help the school's average and ranking status, they couldn't afford for her to miss it.
It seems to me that this CRT training may be in conflict to school goals.
The other thing I want to comment on here is something in the article, something Trump said ... "'They should be focused on defeating America's enemies and winning our future wars. Hopefully, we don't have them, but if we do, we have to win them.' "
imo, Americans are board with their lives, Americans need conflict, even if they have to make one up, to get it.
I agree it doesn't belong in schools, but if you look at their website, I'm not sure The Equity Alliance would know better.
It's been a long stretch of boredom after being locked up but I also think most Americans are complacent. They'll just keep denying anything is going to impact them so it doesn't really matter until it's too late.
What I see missing from (history) this discussion is 'culture' and understanding the differences within the lives of ordinary people, living ordinary lives, beyond that of politics. Slavery had been in existence for 3000 years; it was an acceptable social way of life, implemented by governments, long before 1619. To understand this a person has to go back to Biblical history and understand how government implemented it and how it was used in taxation of the people. Those living in ancient times did not agree (to know this is true, one has to read the Bible) with Slavery, but it was the law of the land. Now fast forward this 'culture" to 1619 and a new land. Same ancient culture, in modern day history and people trying to as they always had been, trying to figure it out. The one law that is bigger than man's law is, God for those people. God's law ordains Slavery, so now what? Are they doing something right or are they doing something wrong and who among them has the authority to judge? Throw into the middle of that a Black person that they have never seen before in their life and there in lays the question I always ask --- what did they know and when did they know it?
We are also talking about a time in American history, what the new government feared the most, was a foreign take over and here you have people bringing in --- foreigners. What could possibly go wrong? If people believed these foreigners were not a threat it could work --- so how do you get people who have never seen a black person in their life, to believe they are not a threat? You do what governments have been doing forever --- you teach them what you want them to know. Trust it isn't hard to get people to believe that a person who can not speak English, is not smart. Today we know better and we still think that way.
Culture is one of those things not taught in schools. I took humanities and philosophy in college in 1992 and the Instructor began the class by stating the percentage of the 'culture illiterate' population among educated people in the u.s. And while I can't remember or find that statistic, I believe it was a relatively high percentage. Knowing this the way I do, trying to get people to understand a culture that was here in the u.s. before air planes were invented is going to be tough. People born today, if they had been born 250 years ago, would have a different perspective. Since only wealthy people could afford to own a slave, understanding the disparities among government defined, class based on income, might lead to people having a different take on the past and apply that past to the present. A poor black person and a poor white person have one thing in common that they both can relate to and that's poverty. K-12 government education is going to address this right? Wealthy people have their own schools.
imo, what kept slavery alive was the 3/5 compromise, which was decided the same the year 1787 that it was decided that the slave issue would not be addressed for 20 years, which was also decided the same year, as the First American Congress 1774 - 1789 decided not to import slaves, with the Southerns taking the lead on that vote. It's the power play, I've always seen, but I haven't nailed the particulars yet --- because I've been busy. Also the book I'm reading the author haven written it 40 years after the civil war assumes its reader understands the events and is not writing for an audience 160 years after the event. So research has been tedious. But that 3/5 is how in the political arena the Southern States or Slave States can maintain the number of delegates in the House of Representative. So this is where politics doesn't represent the people and their culture. Instead its a political power play with people caught in the middle.
Jim Crow, is more of the same play, taking place within the 100 years after the liberation of the Slaves. What I find interesting about this era is the move on the part of people. In that many did not migrate to the North. What we have though is the States laws in the North were against discrimination, but those in authority, it seems they were ignoring the laws. That is a fact not taught in American history, but people know it, just the same, because life's experiences is the greater teacher.
What did they know and when did they know it? And there is a difference between political culture and social culture and in understanding that difference, that will answer that question. The anomaly are those within the social culture ignoring the law --- the people in the South were teaching black people to read, when it was against the law to do so.
Academic experts, including Crenshaw, say critical race theory is not what is being taught in K-12 education curriculums.
It's bad enough we are taught that slavery ended, when it did not, now we have this to contend with; I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers looking forward to an increase in revenue as these cases hit their desks.
If you're getting paid, and not getting put in leg irons for leaving, then the slavery part is over.
It's bad enough we are taught that slavery ended, when it did not, now we have this to contend with; I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers looking forward to an increase in revenue as these cases hit their desks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousMaximum
If you're getting paid, and not getting put in leg irons for leaving, then the slavery part is over.
Interesting you should say that --- you know there's an exit tax, kind of like a slave paying for their freedom from their owner, when you denounce your u.s. citizenship?
The only thing the civil war changed is the government can not tax people as property.
Leg irons? I've been reading Harper's Magazine publication during the dates of the civil war --- a reporter, or writer, or journalist --- traveled the South and did a segment on black churches. Slaves were deacons of those churches. They also purchased clothes to wear for their Sunday best --- just saying, there is 1,000s of years of culture many people do not know anything about, but it is not their fault, no one taught it to them.
However, imo, people were just as barbaric then as they are now, for that, I haven't seen a change. I'm still waiting for the enlightened to show up.
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