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This is the only rational idea in the list. Back in the days of the founders, they never imagined a Presidential election where nearly half the voters didn't even bother to participate like 2016, and about a third stayed away in 2020. Local turnouts are even more pathetic. Point is that we won't be able to blame Trump or his radical supporters for the demise of America as we once knew it - at the end of the day we will have to blame the apathy and ignorance and laziness of the average citizen.
The underlying premise that there is widespread "election fraud" is completely absurd. This is the same simple minded disinformation that has been used countless times to undermine the stability of representative governments. After all if you can get enough people to believe that elections are "rigged", it's easy to justify installing an authoritarian to "make the country safe again". This is exactly how Putin and many other despots in recent history have managed to worm their way into power and stay there.
Never dreamed we'd see this in the USA, but then again no one ever imagined a propaganda weapon as powerful as the Internet.
Here are the facts - even a far Right publication like the Heritage foundation could only find ~1300 cases of election fraud in the entire US over TWENTY YEARS. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud
Do the math folks:
Voting eligible population rounded to the nearest million:
2000: 139,000,000 (105,000,000 voted, about 75%)
2020: 257,000,000 (159,000,000 voted, about 61%)
The percent of election fraud cases based on the Heritage research was about 0.00005% on average of the actual voters, or about 1 in 2.0 million voters. Just as a comparison, your odds of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 300,000.
Point? Even the frigging Heritage Foundation, one of the most right-wing organizations in the USA agrees that fraud in American elections is extremely rare. The drivel about election fraud is nothing more than a dangerous paranoid fantasy.
The more worrisome fact is the declining participation in American elections. From 2000 to 2020 eligible voter participation dropped from 75% to 61%. It helps to explain how the Trumpist far-Right minority (about 20-25% of the citizens at best) can tyrannize the majority.
Last edited by GearHeadDave; 11-03-2021 at 06:51 AM..
This is the only rational idea in the list. Back in the days of the founders, they never imagined a Presidential election where nearly half the voters didn't even bother to participate like 2016, and about a third stayed away in 2020. Local turnouts are even more pathetic. Point is that we won't be able to blame Trump or his radical supporters for the demise of America as we once knew it - at the end of the day we will have to blame the apathy and ignorance and laziness of the average citizen.
The underlying premise that there is widespread "election fraud" is completely absurd. This is the same simple minded disinformation that has been used countless times to undermine the stability of representative governments. After all if you can get enough people to believe that elections are "rigged", it's easy to justify installing an authoritarian to "make the country safe again". This is exactly how Putin and many other despots in recent history have managed to worm their way into power and stay there.
Never dreamed we'd see this in the USA, but then again no one ever imagined a propaganda weapon as powerful as the Internet.
Here are the facts - even a far Right publication like the Heritage foundation could only find ~1300 cases of election fraud in the entire US over TWENTY YEARS. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud
Do the math folks:
Voting eligible population rounded to the nearest million:
2000: 139,000,000 (105,000,000 voted, about 75%)
2020: 257,000,000 (159,000,000 voted, about 61%)
The percent of election fraud cases based on the Heritage research was about 0.00005% on average of the actual voters, or about 1 in 2.0 million voters. Just as a comparison, your odds of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 300,000.
Point? Even the frigging Heritage Foundation, one of the most right-wing organizations in the USA agrees that fraud in American elections is extremely rare. The drivel about election fraud is nothing more than a dangerous paranoid fantasy.
The more worrisome fact is the declining participation in American elections. From 2000 to 2020 eligible voter participation dropped from 75% to 61%. It helps to explain how the Trumpist far-Right minority (about 20-25% of the citizens at best) can tyrannize the majority.
You and I are mostly in agreement. We differ on a few of the details. You state that the Founders, "never imagined a Presidential election where nearly half the voters didn't even bother to participate like 2016." They were actually very much against the majority of people voting for President. This is why the Founders decided on an Electoral College. If you go back to the 1800 Presidential Election for example, only 75,142 people actually voted for Presidential delegates. This was out of a population of 5,308,483. Obviously many people did not have the right to vote such as slaves, women, and men who did not own property. Even so, that means that only 1.4% of the population voted in the election. So they did envision a Presidential Election in which a small percentage of the population would actually vote.
You also state that, "The more worrisome fact is the declining participation in American elections." This doesn't concern me. It concerns me that we have so few people who have any knowledge at all about the candidates, the issues, and what is going on in this country. What we don't need are more uninformed, barely literate people casting ballots. I think people were more informed 50 years ago compared to today. Fifty years ago, people watched the nightly national news and read local newspapers. They had some understanding of what was going on in the world. Today, people are getting their information and opinions from social media, which is more dangerous than no information. I prefer a smaller number of informed voters, rather than encouraging everyone to vote.
This is the only rational idea in the list. Back in the days of the founders, they never imagined a Presidential election where nearly half the voters didn't even bother to participate like 2016, and about a third stayed away in 2020. Local turnouts are even more pathetic. Point is that we won't be able to blame Trump or his radical supporters for the demise of America as we once knew it - at the end of the day we will have to blame the apathy and ignorance and laziness of the average citizen.
The underlying premise that there is widespread "election fraud" is completely absurd. This is the same simple minded disinformation that has been used countless times to undermine the stability of representative governments. After all if you can get enough people to believe that elections are "rigged", it's easy to justify installing an authoritarian to "make the country safe again". This is exactly how Putin and many other despots in recent history have managed to worm their way into power and stay there.
Never dreamed we'd see this in the USA, but then again no one ever imagined a propaganda weapon as powerful as the Internet.
Here are the facts - even a far Right publication like the Heritage foundation could only find ~1300 cases of election fraud in the entire US over TWENTY YEARS. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud
Do the math folks:
Voting eligible population rounded to the nearest million:
2000: 139,000,000 (105,000,000 voted, about 75%)
2020: 257,000,000 (159,000,000 voted, about 61%)
The percent of election fraud cases based on the Heritage research was about 0.00005% on average of the actual voters, or about 1 in 2.0 million voters. Just as a comparison, your odds of being struck by lightning are about 1 in 300,000.
Point? Even the frigging Heritage Foundation, one of the most right-wing organizations in the USA agrees that fraud in American elections is extremely rare. The drivel about election fraud is nothing more than a dangerous paranoid fantasy.
The more worrisome fact is the declining participation in American elections. From 2000 to 2020 eligible voter participation dropped from 75% to 61%. It helps to explain how the Trumpist far-Right minority (about 20-25% of the citizens at best) can tyrannize the majority.
With all due respect, Gearhead, you have no idea if there was or was not “widespread fraud” and neither do I. Which raises a good question: why on earth do we collectively trust a system that there is nearly no transparency? I walk into Home Depot and I pay with a credit or debit card. I get a receipt and that transaction nearly immediately shows up on my statement. Most of the time, I can opt in for immediate notification about transactions via email. But, somehow in 2021, I have no way to know if my vote was counted or for whom it was counted for. I think all of this is part of the plan; the reason why fraud will always be raised and why fraud will always be more likely to happen.
In 2020, more than one state counted absentee ballots with no verification. They counted 100% of all of them. An objective mind might wonder about the validity of those votes, 2020 was very different. So to definitively state that there was no “widespread fraud” in 2020, like many posters have done, is not reasonable and certainly not credible.
With all due respect, Gearhead, you have no idea if there was or was not “widespread fraud” and neither do I. Which raises a good question: why on earth do we collectively trust a system that there is nearly no transparency? I walk into Home Depot and I pay with a credit or debit card. I get a receipt and that transaction nearly immediately shows up on my statement. Most of the time, I can opt in for immediate notification about transactions via email. But, somehow in 2021, I have no way to know if my vote was counted or for whom it was counted for. I think all of this is part of the plan; the reason why fraud will always be raised and why fraud will always be more likely to happen.
In 2020, more than one state counted absentee ballots with no verification. They counted 100% of all of them. An objective mind might wonder about the validity of those votes, 2020 was very different. So to definitively state that there was no “widespread fraud” in 2020, like many posters have done, is not reasonable and certainly not credible.
If a fraud was not detected, then how do we know there was a fraud in the first place? If a fraud was not detected, then of course we would default to no fraud occurred. Once a ballot is counted, even from a fraudulent ballot, it is too late.
So the 'no widespread fraud' argument against voter ID is not a good one.
Would corporate media gatekeepers controlling American politics be better than corporate donors controlling American politics?
Paradoxically, I think what we have is actually more fair, and more democratic.
"Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle." - Thomas Jefferson
"The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." - Thomas Jefferson
Would corporate media gatekeepers controlling American politics be better than corporate donors controlling American politics?
Paradoxically, I think what we have is actually more fair, and more democratic.
"Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle." - Thomas Jefferson
"The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." - Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson is thought to have said, “Information is the currency of democracy”.
Paradoxically, you hero-worship Thomas Jefferson while demonizing democracy.
Thomas Jefferson is thought to have said, “Information is the currency of democracy”.
Paradoxically, you hero-worship Thomas Jefferson while demonizing democracy.
"Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the public interests. In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them, therefore, Liberals and Serviles, Jacobins and Ultras, Whigs and Tories, Republicans and Federalists, Aristocrats and Democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still and pursue the same object. The last one of Aristocrats and Democrats is the true one expressing the essence of all." - Thomas Jefferson
I think we use the term democracy too loosely. Jefferson would not consider America today to be a democracy, or even a Republic. Thomas Jefferson would despise this country.
Thomas Jefferson's version of democracy is closer to anarchy than to what we have now. He wouldn't have fought a war to prevent southern secession either, or any secession for that matter.
"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation … to a continuance in the union …. I have no hesitation in saying, ‘Let us separate.'" - Thomas Jefferson
"Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." - Thomas Jefferson
"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." - Thomas Jefferson
This tells me which party cares about fair and honest elections:
Democrats fight hard against voter ID.
Republicans fight hard for voter ID.
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