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Is that for real? Do you not realize that you just said that if a country gets assistance training its own military then that justifies invading and killing the people in that country?
Well, you're wrong.
It is not OK, not moral, and not legal to attack and kill people because they might constitute a threat someday.
Well we don't live in the moral world.
Because in moral world, it would be impossible to set all these people up for becoming an unavoidable target for attack, and then to clutch the pearls, when they were attacked as expected sooner or later.
Some people are saying the justification for Russia's invading is civilian deaths due to the careless shelling of the breakaway regions. That doesn't make sense because Russian troops were fighting in the Donbas beginning in 2014 while assisting the people in the breakaway areas to overthrow their local government. Russia provided troops and weapons, and the fighting was done under Russian military command structure.
Basically, Russia invaded in 2014 and then apologists claimed Russia invaded because the Ukraine fought back after Russia invaded. That makes no sense.
Secondly, regarding the 2022 invasion.
Here is a chart of the civilian deaths by year in the Donbas war. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...aine-conflict/
Notice there was a great many deaths in 2014-2015, but that it tapered down to 112 in 2016 and then continued to reduce to 27 in 2019, 26 in 2020 and 25 in 2021.
The United Nations observers noted that in recent years most of the civilian deaths were due to mines and handling of ordnance, not military operations. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/...Ukraine-en.pdf
See page 7 for a monthly chart.
The claim that Russia had to intervene with a special military operation in 2022 due to Ukraine's government "shelling civilians" is not supported by the events.
Russia's 2022 invasion was preceded by a troop buildup that began in 2019. That was while and after the fighting had almost completely died down.
I have learned that the US military destroy old stocks continually. Missiles, for example, have to be destroyed when they reach a certain age. They still work but are no longer 100% reliable. Old tanks and vehicles have to be maintained even if they won't be used at all.
It cost less to send them to Ukraine than to keep them here.
US are not sending old tanks. They are ordering upgrade tanks, basically they are getting refurbish tanks but also upgrade. Think of it as taking your current working car and upgrading to current standard of new vehicle. That is basically what they are doing.
So now that we're in the mid-February and starting to see more 40+ degree days in the forecast for Ukraine, curious if you experts are still clinging to all your mass freezing and starvation prognostications.
Thankfully it wasn't cold but you do understand that businesses are getting clobbered by energy costs because their best friend blew up the pipeline or is that lost on you?
Some people are saying the justification for Russia's invading is civilian deaths due to the careless shelling of the breakaway regions. That doesn't make sense because Russian troops were fighting in the Donbas beginning in 2014 while assisting the people in the breakaway areas to overthrow their local government. Russia provided troops and weapons, and the fighting was done under Russian military command structure.
Basically, Russia invaded in 2014 and then apologists claimed Russia invaded because the Ukraine fought back after Russia invaded. That makes no sense.
Secondly, regarding the 2022 invasion.
Here is a chart of the civilian deaths by year in the Donbas war. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...aine-conflict/
Notice there was a great many deaths in 2014-2015, but that it tapered down to 112 in 2016 and then continued to reduce to 27 in 2019, 26 in 2020 and 25 in 2021.
The United Nations observers noted that in recent years most of the civilian deaths were due to mines and handling of ordnance, not military operations. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/...Ukraine-en.pdf
See page 7 for a monthly chart.
The claim that Russia had to intervene with a special military operation in 2022 due to Ukraine's government "shelling civilians" is not supported by the events.
Russia's 2022 invasion was preceded by a troop buildup that began in 2019. That was while and after the fighting had almost completely died down.
The United Nations is hardly reliable given their complicity in all of this. And you failed to mention a few facts. The US was preparing the Ukrainian Army to take back the Donbass and Crimea by force during the 2014 - 2022 time period. Ukraine in essence became a UN army since it was prepared and armed by them, and the border areas were heavily fortified. The Ukrainian Army gathered on the border and was poised to attack just before the Russian invasion. But the Russians preempted them and attacked first. The Russian forces were outnumbered 3 to 1 by the Ukrainians, yet nevertheless progress was made that pushed the Ukrainians back.
Ukraine did shell innocent civilians during the 2014 to 2022 time period. That is an undisputed fact. Putin waffled during this time and wanted to solve this problem peacefully through negotiation. But the UN led him on in this while continuing to strengthen Ukrainian forces and continued to fortify the border areas so that even an armed mouse could not get through. So it is apparent that Putin did not want to attack Ukraine just for its territory. He wanted peaceful coexistence. Otherwise, he could have rolled over a far less prepared Ukraine back in 2014.
But I'm sorry, I'm introducing some uncomfortable facts that don't support the required narrative. So strike that, let's just mindlessly repeat the required mantra - Russia bad, Ukraine good. That way, you don't need to think, just repeat.
That data has been listed several times in this thread to counter the Russian bots but they keep telling the same lies over and over again.
And the Ukrainian bots keep repeating their lies and "data". Over and over without looking at inconvenient facts. Their job is to keep a fantasy alive. Yes, the required narrative. It must continue.
Some people are saying the justification for Russia's invading is civilian deaths due to the careless shelling of the breakaway regions. That doesn't make sense because Russian troops were fighting in the Donbas beginning in 2014 while assisting the people in the breakaway areas to overthrow their local government. Russia provided troops and weapons, and the fighting was done under Russian military command structure.
Basically, Russia invaded in 2014 and then apologists claimed Russia invaded because the Ukraine fought back after Russia invaded. That makes no sense.
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Add to this the magnitude of the deaths. Civilian deaths over the 8 years of the Donbas insurrection were just over 3,000 overall, and this number included civilians who died as the result of both Ukrainian and Russian supported separatist actions. So, about 400 civilians died annually, perhaps about 200 as the result of Ukranian military actions.
Seems reasonable to me that we attribute the vast majority of them to Russian military activity, as it is the Russians who are shelling cities with artillery, drones and missiles.
So, on an annualized basis, we have a ratio of 7,199:200. Russia has killed about 36 times as many civilians as Ukraine.
You are correct. Blaming this on Ukraine makes no sense. Saying Russia is not responsible makes no sense. And saying Russia has invaded because of the civilian deaths in Donbas regions makes no sense. Russian actions (killing civilians), if the goal is to stop the deaths of civilians, makes no sense.
US are not sending old tanks. They are ordering upgrade tanks, basically they are getting refurbish tanks but also upgrade. Think of it as taking your current working car and upgrading to current standard of new vehicle. That is basically what they are doing.
Actually for the US M1 tanks it is to build new export models without the secret armor because the US fears that the Ukrainians, or Iraqis for another user, can't be counted control the battlefield and recover knocked out tanks before pieces of armor are sliced off and sent to Russia and China for analysis.
But in the end the M1 tank battalion is just the political cost needed to get Berlin to release the end user of their tanks to be able to send them to Ukraine. So while Russia tries to upgrade T-62s there are next generation Leopard 2s in the pipeline along with other contributing nations upgrading their peer to the T-62 the Leopard 1s as the old Cold War stocks are emptied. So the US tanks will be among the last to arrive along with the other refurbished tanks to help sustain Ukraine after the coming combat losses of 2023.
Meanwhile all of the lighter armored vehicles, the infantry fighting vehicles, armored reconnaissance vehicles, self propelled artillery, mobile anti aircraft guns, combat engineering vehicles are coming in without the political blowback that held up the deployment of Leopard 2 main battle tanks
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