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Territory that you are now claiming hasn't been defined. Pretty impressive to hold referendums when you don't even know the boundaries of the territory that's being voted on, but hey....
I'm not saying it makes sense. Nothing Putin does makes sense. He is a mad man. I'm just telling you what has been reported.
Quote:
Russia To 'Consult' Locals On Annexed Ukraine Regions' Borders: Kremlin
Russia plans to confer with residents in two Moscow-annexed regions in Ukraine while determining the exact borders of the areas to be integrated into Russia, the Kremlin said Monday.
"We are going to continue to consult the populations of these regions," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said referring to the southern Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions that are partially controlled by the Ukrainian military.
"No doubt, any configuration will depend only on the will of the people who live in a particular territory," he said.
Oh you sweet summer child, if you really were fighting NATO, you would KNOW it. I do agree with the "LPR" guy in the video who basically says that Russia lacks intelligence, which is a statement that Russia has proven to be true in more ways than one...
That is rewarding Russia. That is 100% unacceptable. There can be no cession of territory other than Crimea, which historically was Russian.
Russia withdraws to its internationally recognized borders. UN takes over Crimea and does a referendum for 2014 residents. The rest is all Ukraine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
Have to agree with GotHere, why would Ukraine agree to this? Due to all the ethnic cleansing, not to mention fraud or cheating, Russia might win some of those votes.
I can see Ukraine agreeing to have its four provinces back and in exchange Russia keeps Crimea and Ukraine does not join NATO and instead becomes a "Finlandized" neutral.
But then again, how does Ukraine trust Russia after all this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould
Why in the world would Ukraine agree to this?
Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely on Ukraine's side in this war but I also realize there's a serious problem: right now everything seems to be going Ukraine's way, they're making great progress in re-capturing areas that the Russians took. But it did it ever occur that it's possible the tide might turn? What if Russian starts to use very small tactical nukes? You think NATO will immediately react if low-grade battlefield nukes are being used? What if the Russian do regroup? What if Europe drops support after a winter of cold? What's the alternative; for Ukraine to retake all areas including Crimea? Then what might Russia do?
There needs to be a way our for both sides to save face, even though Putin doesn't deserve it one bit. I threw in Crimea because the political status is disputed. Read up on the history of Crimea, and you can see there's a case to be made that this area shouldn't have been Ukrainian.
I'm concerned if there isn't some sort of agreement that a year from now we are not looking at an Ukrainian victory, but a stalemate or a serious Russian escalation. Has anyone who considered that?
Impossible. Russia must be destroyed. That's the whole point of the war. Anything less is failure.
I think you skipped history class, countless wars end in a peace agreement/truce/stalemate/cease fire/compromise where neither side is destroyed. Look at the Korean War.
Peace is more important than violence, death, and destruction.
Re Crimea:
People forget that, for many years before 2014, Russia and Ukraine shared Crimea. Ukrainian and Russian ships shared the same harbor. There was peace and prosperity.
But Russia would have none of that. They invaded using troops and vehicles with no markings and took all of Crimea for their own. Many Crimeans celebrated.
For me the question of Russian remaining in possession of Crimea is, "nyet". Crimea must receive water and electrical power from Ukraine, so whoever owns and occupies Crimea must also have a portion of Ukraine, a difficulty that was pointed out in 2014 before Ukraine cut off the water supply.
When the conflict is settled, Ukraine will probably regain control of Crimea. They may even leave the Crimea Bridge intact in order to attract Russian vacationers, but the traffic will be controlled.
Russia's dream of being in sole control of Black Sea commerce will die.
The Russians have controlled parts of Donetsk and Lugansk since before 2014. How much longer would they have to control it before you would accept that they are in control of it?
As far as Russian lines collapsing, I hope you are right, but that remains to be seen.
Russian lines ARE collapsing....Cloudy Dayz are now turning into Sunny Dayz
Ukraine is armed and trained by NATO, and is plugged directly into NATO satellites/intelligence. Ukraine wouldn't last a week without Western support.
On the flip side, all of that effort wouldn't amount to anything if Ukraine wasn't willing to fight back. Big difference from Afghanistan last year. The Ukrainian military deserves as much credit for their successes as our assistance does.
Russians like to tell themselves they're fighting NATO troops because it sounds better to them than admitting they're getting their asses handed to them by the very people they see as "inferior", or "little Russians".
Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely on Ukraine's side in this war but I also realize there's a serious problem: right now everything seems to be going Ukraine's way, they're making great progress in re-capturing areas that the Russians took. But it did it ever occur that it's possible the tide might turn? What if Russian starts to use very small tactical nukes? You think NATO will immediately react if low-grade battlefield nukes are being used? What if the Russian do regroup? What if Europe drops support after a winter of cold? What's the alternative; for Ukraine to retake all areas including Crimea? Then what might Russia do?
There needs to be a way our for both sides to save face, even though Putin doesn't deserve it one bit. I threw in Crimea because the political status is disputed. Read up on the history of Crimea, and you can see there's a case to be made that this area shouldn't have been Ukrainian.
I'm concerned if there isn't some sort of agreement that a year from now we are not looking at an Ukrainian victory, but a stalemate or a serious Russian escalation. Has anyone who considered that?
Absolutely Yes they will respond....the entire world will respond. It is being telegraphed to Russia that it will lose it's Black Sea fleet with Conventional weapons.....and NATO will step in. Lobbing a tactical nuke will not alter the battlefield...it will give the west permission to arm Ukrainians with its most advanced weapons. As the world watches in awe Ukraine's ability to go on the offensive...Support will remain steady....why let up when you have your opponent on the ropes. Russia's defensive lines are collapsing as we speak...there is no elite calvary on the way to rescue...there are untrained cannon fodder coming in to replace the last of Russia's professional soldiers.
Russia is going to have to come to grips it has lost this adventurism...and Ukraine is now becoming a first rate global military power. You can't put the horses back in the barn now. They are out.
Last edited by JohnBoy64; 10-04-2022 at 08:51 AM..
Just because Russia and previously the Soviet Union existed in our lifetime does not mean they need to always exist as a political entity. Putin is begging for Russia's downfall so we should give it to him. Go look at a map of Europe throughout the centuries and you will see the the rise and fall of many empires. There is no need to give Putin a way out.
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