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So, this disproves that China could possibly do anything wrong?
As above: let's say this is 100% totally true. Does this mean China is incapable of doing any of the bad things the US has done?
I hate to raise the race issue, but if you think about it, it makes sense. let say china is doing 100% wrong.
but when the white people pointing it out, it makes it less likely for the people of color to believe it. especially when the white people themselves have been doing similar things to people of color throughout history.
Apparently genocide is only ok when asians do it, you heard it here first folks
Stop with the genocide line. What evidence do you have an actual genocide? The term genocide comes from the Greek word Geno, meaning people and the Latin word Cide which is the act of killing. It literally means to kill a group of people. Nowhere has it been shown that China is committing an actual genocide by the textbook or any realistic definition. Don't give me that cultural genocide B.S. that gets thrown around whenever Western nations get exposed in an outright lie or exaggeration and must cover it up.
And maomao is right. Non-whites have suffered atrocities at the hands of white people for hundreds of years. Many of these atrocities included being wrongfully cast as a villain to appease or rile up the white mob depending upon the circumstance. Considering this history, it's only natural for non-white people to approach these allegations from a point of skepticism. The unfortunate truth is many would like to see a world in which China is just as if not more powerful than the U.S., as it would be the first time since the Ottoman Empire that there was a non-white superpower, a welcome balance to the world.
I’m not entertaining your deflection. Theres Turks who would claim the Armenian genocide was simply a military conflict. Regardless, the genocide against the Uyghur people is recognized by several countries throughout the world, not just the United States.
On your second point, I have no problem with China being a more powerful country than the United States, but I do have a problem with the genocidal, crimInal against humanity CCP leading a world superpower. I do not believe that it’s fair to expect the US economy with 1/4 Chinas population to perpetually remain the worlds largest economy. I do however prefer a country that understands the concept of democracy and human rights, despite its own flaws to hold that title. Hopefully China will say enough is enough and get rid of the gongfei once and for all
On your second point, I have no problem with China being a more powerful country than the United States, but I do have a problem with the genocidal, crimInal against humanity CCP leading a world superpower. I do not believe that it’s fair to expect the US economy with 1/4 Chinas population to perpetually remain the worlds largest economy. I do however prefer a country that understands the concept of democracy and human rights, despite its own flaws to hold that title. Hopefully China will say enough is enough and get rid of the gongfei once and for all
China will not become a more powerful country than America though. The Chinese economy is in shambles. China's fertility rate is at other East Asian countries' level, population is quite old and ageing fast, and the debt situation is terrible. When other countries that followed a similar trajectory (Korea and Taiwan) were at China's stage now (GDP per capita 15-20% of the US/PPP per capita 25-30% of the US, so in the 90s), fertility rate was very high, population was very young, and debt level was very low. China is a developing country with all the problems of a developed country. It doesn't really have much hope.
I’m not entertaining your deflection. Theres Turks who would claim the Armenian genocide was simply a military conflict. Regardless, the genocide against the Uyghur people is recognized by several countries throughout the world, not just the United States.
On your second point, I have no problem with China being a more powerful country than the United States, but I do have a problem with the genocidal, crimInal against humanity CCP leading a world superpower. I do not believe that it’s fair to expect the US economy with 1/4 Chinas population to perpetually remain the worlds largest economy. I do however prefer a country that understands the concept of democracy and human rights, despite its own flaws to hold that title. Hopefully China will say enough is enough and get rid of the gongfei once and for all
Will leave at that, no evidence of an actual genocide. Calling it cultural genocide is really disingenuous since it waters down the term and once again is a sneaky way to incorporate the shocking and horrific imagery the word invokes without none of those actions actually taking place. I live in a democratic nation and I'm fine with democratic institutions. But it is arrogant and dangerous rhetoric to suggest ever country should live under the same type of government. Countries should do what works best for them. The spreading of democracy and protecting human rights lines are just a proxy for demeaning other nations and to foster a since of unity amongst Western civilizations. This idea that only democratic nations can be good countries has led to the deaths of millions of people around the world. It needs to stop.
China will not become a more powerful country than America though. The Chinese economy is in shambles. China's fertility rate is at other East Asian countries' level, population is quite old and ageing fast, and the debt situation is terrible. When other countries that followed a similar trajectory (Korea and Taiwan) were at China's stage now (GDP per capita 15-20% of the US/PPP per capita 25-30% of the US, so in the 90s), fertility rate was very high, population was very young, and debt level was very low. China is a developing country with all the problems of a developed country. It doesn't really have much hope.
PDW, this is what I was talking about. Guys like this poster hang on every "This will be China's downfall" theory based strictly off not wanting to have a powerful non-white nation. Many people feel this way, and hope for China's downfall. The idea of powerful white nations controlling everything is comfortable to them. At most they would like for China to be a Japan. Economically successful but subservient to western interest.
Fyi, the Chinese economy is not in shambles. It's projected to grow at 4.4%. They are producing the most scientist, patents, and millionaires and probably aren't operating at half of their capacity. Look at their recent space accomplishments. The fertility rate situation is just a theory. In the 70s and 80s it was China has too many people. Now it's China will not have enough people. They have been making these predictions since the 70s and they have failed every time. But hey, I guess a broke clock can be right at least twice per day. The Chinese are successful because as Elon Musk put it, they put in the work. They also have a communal culture which places group over the individual. Combine this with a government system that protects them and allows its citizens to prosper and you have the recipe for Chinese success.
PDW, this is what I was talking about. Guys like this poster hang on every "This will be China's downfall" theory based strictly off not wanting to have a powerful non-white nation. Many people feel this way, and hope for China's downfall. The idea of powerful white nations controlling everything is comfortable to them. At most they would like for China to be a Japan. Economically successful but subservient to western interest.
What makes you think a middle income trap = a downfall? Middle income trap means China will not continue to improve, not that it would completely collapse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major
Fyi, the Chinese economy is not in shambles. It's projected to grow at 4.4%. They are producing the most scientist, patents, and millionaires and probably aren't operating at half of their capacity. Look at their recent space accomplishments. The fertility rate situation is just a theory. In the 70s and 80s it was China has too many people. Now it's China will not have enough people. They have been making these predictions since the 70s and they have failed every time. But hey, I guess a broke clock can be right at least twice per day. The Chinese are successful because as Elon Musk put it, they put in the work. They also have a communal culture which places group over the individual. Combine this with a government system that protects them and allows its citizens to prosper and you have the recipe for Chinese success.
China's economic centres were in lockdown for almost an entire quarter but sure lmao.
If you can't read Chinese, at least talk to someone who's been living in China for a decent amount of time. Unlike you I actually understand Chinese. Chinese people might be brainwashed about Taiwan, but they are not completely blind about their current economic position. Many Chinese scholars and officials are extremely pessimistic about the country's prospect, though their views are obviously censored.
China will not become a more powerful country than America though. The Chinese economy is in shambles. China's fertility rate is at other East Asian countries' level, population is quite old and ageing fast, and the debt situation is terrible. When other countries that followed a similar trajectory (Korea and Taiwan) were at China's stage now (GDP per capita 15-20% of the US/PPP per capita 25-30% of the US, so in the 90s), fertility rate was very high, population was very young, and debt level was very low. China is a developing country with all the problems of a developed country. It doesn't really have much hope.
Add to that, record low consumer and investor confidence due to the COVID lockdowns, the sudden and swift appearance of "common prosperity" policies and their sudden "temporary" easing as the economy stumbles, which paints the picture of a short-sighted, reactionary, ideology-driven leadership, and the failure of any of these easings or any stimulus to produce any stabilizing result.
As the Shanghai COVID lockdown ends, I don't expect the economy to come "roaring" back to life by any stretch: the entire fiasco has caused malaise and resentment across the entire spread of the population... All it's done is exacerbate the feelings of uncertainty and dark horizons among people. When things get bad in China, people tend to pull back, hunker down with family, and spend conservatively to weather the storm. The worker shortage that China has already been dealing with for the last few years will get worse, as older people shuffle out of the market and younger people are more likely to return to their hometowns to stay with family. College grads who were already struggling - I read that something like 60% of the meituan and dada delivery guys in urban areas have college degrees - are looking at bleaker prospects than ever.
They announced a big infrastructure spending push, which is just an extension of the debt bomb that they built up over the last couple decades. They announced easing on mortgage and loan terms. They told banks to be ease their lending policies. None of these had any positive effect, anywhere in the country. What can they really do?
Well, Xi Jinping announced that there would be a new study into the ancient origins of Chinese culture, and the press release had a lot of flowery, verbose language about the pride of the Chinese people. There's that, I guess.
It's indisputable that China experienced phenomenal, meteoric growth the likes of which has never been seen. I was there for a part of it. But, for many years, the rest of the world just sort of took all of China's economic data at face value, in large part because it benefited most of the world's corporations and elites, in the short term, at least. Now that so many people, places, and institutions have been burned, there's a big chill. Foreign capital rushed out, and isn't rushing back in. BRI investments have proven to be problematic, not materialize, or result in insurmountable debts; the number of nations rushing to make deals with China has petered out. With China's debt soaring and its failure to stabilize its own economy, it doesn't look like the strong economic partner it's marketed itself as. Xi isn't having any success in the leadup to the party congress, which is a really bad sign for China, as traditionally premiers will pull out all the stops in creating an environment of total growth and prosperity beforehand to showcase their success; that he isn't able to do this as members of the Shanghai clique are steadily becoming more bold and openly disagreeing with his policies, indicates that yes, things are indeed a mess.
I think that stabilization is possible, though it will be difficult with current conditions and leadership. I think that, by the time it does stabilize, China will have hit the demographic hurdles without the momentum to clear them. I doubt we will see a return to previous growth curves for economy and influence; the Chinese will, by and large, look back on the 00's and 10's like the US looks back at the 80's and 90's.
What makes you think a middle income trap = a downfall? Middle income trap means China will not continue to improve, not that it would completely collapse.
China's economic centres were in lockdown for almost an entire quarter but sure lmao.
If you can't read Chinese, at least talk to someone who's been living in China for a decent amount of time. Unlike you I actually understand Chinese. Chinese people might be brainwashed about Taiwan, but they are not completely blind about their current economic position. Many Chinese scholars and officials are extremely pessimistic about the country's prospect, though their views are obviously censored.
I don’t need to read Chinese to have a decent understanding. I’m not professing to be expert. I do know how to seek alternative information sources and come to a complete understanding. What is your Chinese level? Who are these “connects’ you speak of? Will say I would be thoroughly impressed if you can read the language at a grade school level, but it doesn’t mean much if you are only reading information that confirms your biases.
There are many reasons to be pessimistic about the country’s prospects. At the same time there are many reasons to be optimistic. The U.S. and other nations are no different. Which side you choose to focus comes down to how you already view the country (threat vs friendly). As far as the middle-income trap you are ignoring instances that makes China far different from the other nations this fate has befallen.
1) They have an authoritative government. As much as it sucks to admit it, such governments (if the leadership is good) are better at growing the economy. Prevents stupid people from voting in stupid laws and people only voting for things that benefits their group. Both hurt progress.
2) They have developed their own industries. Take space exploration for example. They will develop entire industries centered upon space tourism, exploration, and research. Look at Tik Tok. The most popular new social media app is ironically Chinese. Don't even get me started on EVs and precious minerals/metals.
3) They are not subservient to the U.S. As with Japan and to some degree S. Korea, once you become too successful the U.S. will come knocking demanding concessions in exchange for continual protection and open trade. Much like the mob. This is one of the reasons, the Japanese economy has grown since the 90s. Look up the Plaza Accords.
4) They have creative and hardworking people. They are incredibly innovative while at the same time fiscally responsible and hardworking. Nation states are built upon the people. Successful people typically bread a successful nation.
At the end of the day, I don't have a crystal ball to see the future, but I wouldn't bet against China at this moment.
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