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To some degree I should be applauded as I have the courage as an American to present a non-American angle as opposed to participating in the echo chamber.
Nope, I'm merely responding to another poster's statement.
It's not, but I'm not giving any credence to articles from BBC, or NBC, or Fox or any western affiliated media, not at face value at least and definitely not when it comes to China or Russia.
The CCP basically doesn't admit any fault, any mistakes, or any failures in anything. You are stating, basically, that you won't give "any western media any credence" when it comes to Russia or China. I'm assuming that you would consider, for example, Indian, Japanese, or Korean media outlets which are publish critical China content as being "Western affiliated." So basically, any negative news about China, unless it's from China itself, you won't believe.
This makes having a conversation with you on this pointless. You remind me of a poster in P&OC, back in the Obama years, who posted "hey liberals, tell me how we got sucked into the Iraq war, WITHOUT blaming Bush!!" and thought they were being clever. "Prove to me China's doing anything bad, without using any critical coverage of China!"
I am of Asian descent. I know White people may have done a lot of terrible stuff in the past centuries but they have acknowledged (for the most part), admitted, paid at least some retribution and changed a lot since then and most importantly be open for discussions and criticisms. If we still hold grudge against the ancestors of those people that would just be a tragedy. Rather we should focus on the present and the future.
can we say the same thing about this topic?
I know chinese people may have done a lot of terrible stuff in the past decades but they have acknowledged (for the most part), admitted, paid at least some retribution and changed a lot since then and most importantly be open for discussions and criticisms. If we still hold grudge against the past governors of those people that would just be a tragedy. Rather we should focus on the present and the future
you can argue it either way. it's just internet memes now a days, "CCP never admit", "face", "never change"
BS, CCP has changed more in the last 50 years than any party/government in the world.
The CCP basically doesn't admit any fault, any mistakes, or any failures in anything. You are stating, basically, that you won't give "any western media any credence" when it comes to Russia or China. I'm assuming that you would consider, for example, Indian, Japanese, or Korean media outlets which are publish critical China content as being "Western affiliated." So basically, any negative news about China, unless it's from China itself, you won't believe.
This makes having a conversation with you on this pointless. You remind me of a poster in P&OC, back in the Obama years, who posted "hey liberals, tell me how we got sucked into the Iraq war, WITHOUT blaming Bush!!" and thought they were being clever. "Prove to me China's doing anything bad, without using any critical coverage of China!"
Not wasting my effort. Sorry.
Yes, my first instinct is to doubt MSM because they have been shown to be dishonest when it comes to Russia and China coverage.
My approach is to distrust and verify. You can bring in a source, and I will debunk it with logic, or another source that can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesclues5
Be specific and show me a youtuber and why you think they are state sponsored.
Surely naming a couple of youtubers isn't a huge effort. C'mon, humor me. Name just one.
I am of Asian descent. I know White people may have done a lot of terrible stuff in the past centuries but they have acknowledged (for the most part), admitted, paid at least some retribution and changed a lot since then and most importantly be open for discussions and criticisms. If we still hold grudge against the ancestors of those people that would just be a tragedy. Rather we should focus on the present and the future.
Sorry, they haven't stopped. The US continues to interfere around the world, and I'm not even talking about the military campaigns. I'm talking about covert operations that dismantle democratically elected heads of state, and installing puppet leaders that will do their bidding.
1) They have an authoritative government. As much as it sucks to admit it, such governments (if the leadership is good) are better at growing the economy. Prevents stupid people from voting in stupid laws and people only voting for things that benefits their group. Both hurt progress.
2) They have developed their own industries. Take space exploration for example. They will develop entire industries centered upon space tourism, exploration, and research. Look at Tik Tok. The most popular new social media app is ironically Chinese. Don't even get me started on EVs and precious minerals/metals.
3) They are not subservient to the U.S. As with Japan and to some degree S. Korea, once you become too successful the U.S. will come knocking demanding concessions in exchange for continual protection and open trade. Much like the mob. This is one of the reasons, the Japanese economy has grown since the 90s. Look up the Plaza Accords.
4) They have creative and hardworking people. They are incredibly innovative while at the same time fiscally responsible and hardworking. Nation states are built upon the people. Successful people typically bread a successful nation.
1) Why admit something that is not true. Most authoritarian governments are dirt poor and hardly grow at all, while most rich countries are democratic. China has been doing better than other authoritarian governments. I believe that is because China was controlled by a party and not a single dictator. Now that Xi has put more and more power into one person, then it all seem to fall apart.
2) China has destroyed its own domestic tourist industry, and you expect it to tackle space tourism? And TikTok is tiny compared to American companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft and Tesla. With a population of 1.4 billion, it is expected that China will dominate multiple industries.
3) Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are the most successful countries in East Asia. What are you talking about?
4) Chinese are not creative, have you ever been to China? They are also not that hard-working, lots of people just sit around at work and do nothing. This is especially the case after zero covid forced China to slow down. And even in cases where they do work hard, they often do useless work like attending mandatory evening meetings.
In addition, with the rise of technology and robots, it is becoming more and more important to work right, instead of working hard. Chinese real advantage is Chinese capitalist pragmatism, just do what it takes to win. But with zero covid and crackdowns, their wings have gotten clipped.
Sorry, they haven't stopped. The US continues to interfere around the world, and I'm not even talking about the military campaigns. I'm talking about covert operations that dismantle democratically elected heads of state, and installing puppet leaders that will do their bidding.
It’s hard to fully justify every of the U.S.’ actions and influence if you look at every minute detail with a magnifying glass, but I will say this: I will take the U.S. that we currently have over a world that never had any U.S. interference/influence or a world that had the Soviet Union winning the Cold War. Human history has existed for thousands of years and the period of the greatest and exponential population increase and technological/economic development over the past 70 years since the United States became a global superpower. For any bad actors in the U.S. I prefer to hold them accountable rather than the whole country.
It’s hard to fully justify every of the U.S.’ actions and influence if you look at every minute detail with a magnifying glass, but I will say this: I will take the U.S. that we currently have over a world that never had any U.S. interference/influence or a world that had the Soviet Union winning the Cold War. Human history has existed for thousands of years and the period of the greatest and exponential population increase and technological/economic development over the past 70 years since the United States became a global superpower. For any bad actors in the U.S. I prefer to hold them accountable rather than the whole country.
I feel the same way. And I feel this way about China too. Xi seems to be undoing a lot of the progress the CCP made from the 90s-early 00s, but I’m sure there’s still factions within the CCP working towards more peaceful engagement with foreign governments and towards greater degrees of liberalization within. And also, while no doubt they’d all support reunifying with Taiwan, I’m sure many would reject it if force was the only path available.
Taking a contrary viewpoint to most people in your country doesn't automatically mean you should be applauded... If you're totally off base, you are going solely off of inaccurate or bad info, etc, that's not bringing educated dissent, that's just being reactionary. I recall you previously saying that Americans' opinions on geopolitical matters "don't count" or that they "have no right to comment," something to that effect... Combining that with your statement about how you should be applauded does change the substance of your arguments: it seems that you have taken the opinion that Americans who don't think like you automatically deserve to have their opinions disregarded or rejected, and you assume that any dissenting opinion to yours is from an American.
Afaik, Greysholic is, in addition to being Taiwanese, in Taiwan. The Taiwanese have a valid reason to react adversely to the CCP's statements and policy, because, you know, they make "taking back" Taiwan a cornerstone of their national policy, and are increasingly more threatening about it.
Edited to add, do you speak or read Mandarin? Are you ethnically Chinese, or do you have deep personal links to the Chinese diaspora or culture? How much time have you spent over there, or abroad in general?
Keep in mind that this is the internet. People can claim to be anything. But often they can't hide their ideology.
1) Why admit something that is not true. Most authoritarian governments are dirt poor and hardly grow at all, while most rich countries are democratic. China has been doing better than other authoritarian governments. I believe that is because China was controlled by a party and not a single dictator. Now that Xi has put more and more power into one person, then it all seem to fall apart.
Read my point again, I stated in parenthesis if the leadership is good. Bad leadership dooms any country regardless of their political system. FYI there are plenty of poor democracies.
2) China has destroyed its own domestic tourist industry, and you expect it to tackle space tourism? And TikTok is tiny compared to American companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft and Tesla. With a population of 1.4 billion, it is expected that China will dominate multiple industries.
How many countries have been able to launch a person into space? How many countries have successfully launched Lunar and Mars rovers? How many countries have their own space station? These are just a few of their space achievements. They present an alternative to U.S. and will be able to cash in, particularly if they can come in at a lower price point. While U.S. corporations are indeed larger, you are forgetting they had a head start with favorable conditions. After all the U.S. is trying to destroy Chinse companies with sanctions as opposed to competing.
3) Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are the most successful countries in East Asia. What are you talking about?
I don't doubt their success, but I wouldn't consider them more successful than China. You only see them as more successful because they do what the U.S. says. All three lack an ability to defend themselves. Japan's economy has grinded to a halt for the last 30 years. Lastly all 3 are too reliant upon the U.S. for just about everything. The only real advantage they have over China is that their population is much small, as such the economic fruits don't have to be divided as much.
4) Chinese are not creative, have you ever been to China? They are also not that hard-working, lots of people just sit around at work and do nothing. This is especially the case after zero covid forced China to slow down. And even in cases where they do work hard, they often do useless work like attending mandatory evening meetings.
We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't have to go to China to clearly see evidence that the people are hard working. You don't go from poor to the second largest GDP (soon to be 1st) by being lazy. Elon Musk the American hero even noticed it. This man has operations in the country and clearly sees firsthand. Look him up, he stated the Chinse work harder than Americans. Might hurt egos to admit, but the truth hurts. The number of patents granted, and STEM graduates speaks to the level innovation. Don't become blinded by insecurity. I don't doubt there are lazy or unintelligent people in the country. I mean it has 1.4 billion people, but there are enough on the upper end to lift everyone up.
In addition, with the rise of technology and robots, it is becoming more and more important to work right, instead of working hard. Chinese real advantage is Chinese capitalist pragmatism, just do what it takes to win. But with zero covid and crackdowns, their wings have gotten clipped.
Interesting that at first China was being praised for its COVID strategy, now it has become the latest tool in predicting the fall of China. These predictions, though they keep failing folks keep coming up with new ones. Maybe it's like shooting baskets, eventually one will go in, I guess.
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