Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Of course, you are not obligated to answer, but it makes you look like fool who doesn't even believe in your own argument.
China's relationship with Taiwan is certainly relevant to China's international position. Not irrelevant at all. We all know why you refuse to answer, hence why I will keep asking you till you either answer or leave the debate about China to people who can argue properly.
"Shouldn't a country of China's strength be able to control its own territories?"
Looks like I've driven you to foolishly repeat yourself.
Seems you think you already know the answer (Which of course you don't). So go ahead answer your own question like you so desperately would like to. You have my permission.
Video is quite damning regarding the false accusations the US has been trumpeting regarding the Uighurs. US citizenry fed propaganda to foment general anger over China and the Chinese in general...and it still works, just not as well as it used to.
"Shouldn't a country of China's strength be able to control its own territories?"
Looks like I've driven you to foolishly repeat yourself.
Seems you think you already know the answer (Which of course you don't). So go ahead answer your own question like you so desperately would like to. You have my permission.
This question is for you. I don't agree with the premise of the question that Taiwan belongs to the PRC, but you do.
To give some context. You said China's international position is strengthening. One of my arguments against your claim was that the Pelosi incident makes China look weak. Instead of providing a proper answer, you just said "Taiwan is part of China". My answer to that is that if Taiwan belongs to the PRC, then it just makes the Pelosi incident more embarrassing.
Since you struggled/refused to understand why that makes China look more embarrassing, then I asked you if China should be able to control its own territories. That question apparently makes you uncomfortable, so you foolishly decided to refuse to answer.
I don't agree with the premise of the question that Taiwan belongs to the PRC, but you do.
Yes Taiwan is part of China...and?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
To give some context. You said China's international position is strengthening. One of my arguments against your claim was that the Pelosi incident makes China look weak. Instead of providing a proper answer, you just said "Taiwan is part of China". My answer to that is that if Taiwan belongs to the PRC, then it just makes the Pelosi incident more embarrassing.
and so what if it 'looks embarrassing'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
Since you struggled/refused to understand why that makes China look more embarrassing, then I asked you if China should be able to control its own territories. That question apparently makes you uncomfortable, so you foolishly decided to refuse to answer.
WRONG! Post 144 & 146 have provided the response to your 'question'...if the response isn't what you wanted you can make up the rest...since you seem interested in answering your own question so go ahead.
You obviously don't have interest in the video pertaining to the false accusations regarding the Uighurs. If I were to be like you, I would demand a detailed accounting of why you are too uncomfortable to comment. A bit like the US media trying to bury/change the subject.
WRONG! Post 144 & 146 have provided the response to your 'question'
First, you refuse to answer and now you lie. Can you sink any lower? Let me remind you that the question was
Shouldn't a country of China's strength be able to control its own territories?
Hare are your answers Post 144: China has been smart enough to not permit the US to embroil them in anything militarily. Post 146: Status quo seems to be fine with China as with status quo they continue to make worldwide gains. Post 149: Ha! I have no interest nor am under no obligation to answer your deflective off-topic questions.
Post 144 and 146 are clearly not answering the question above, and you admit it yourself in post 149.
China's youth unemployment rate is trailing southern Europe at this point as a developing country full of poverty but sure, everything's fine. Lmao.
In 2019 everyone and their mother was saying China would surpass America to become the world's largest economy, no one is saying it now. The more sympathetic people say China is Japan in the 90s, but the reality is China is the next Brazil/Russia. Japan at least was a developed country when it started to stagnate.
First, you refuse to answer and now you lie. Can you sink any lower? Let me remind you that the question was
Shouldn't a country of China's strength be able to control its own territories?
Hare are your answers Post 144: China has been smart enough to not permit the US to embroil them in anything militarily. Post 146: Status quo seems to be fine with China as with status quo they continue to make worldwide gains. Post 149: Ha! I have no interest nor am under no obligation to answer your deflective off-topic questions.
Post 144 and 146 are clearly not answering the question above, and you admit it yourself in post 149.
WRONG! I responded to your question in a way of my choosing, not yours. Post 144 & 146 Despite your whining and phony accusations, if you require a further response, it's too bad you are not entitled to anything. You are free to answer your own question, but apparently too afraid to now.
You have been unable to reply at all regarding the phony accusations the US has made against China in the video I posted. Your efforts are similar to US efforts to cover up and deflect. Can you stoop any lower?
WRONG! I responded to your question in a way of my choosing, not yours. Post 144 & 146 Despite your whining and phony accusations, if you require a further response, it's too bad you are not entitled to anything. You are free to answer your own question, but apparently too afraid to now.
You have been unable to reply at all regarding the phony accusations the US has made against China in the video I posted. Your efforts are similar to US efforts to cover up and deflect. Can you stoop any lower?
If you answered a question like that in school, you would get an F.
The topic between us is your claim that China's international position is strengthening not Uighurs. I am not going to entertain your desperate attempts to change the topic.
If you answered a question like that in school, you would get an F.
The topic between us is your claim that China's international position is strengthening not Uighurs. I am not going to entertain your desperate attempts to change the topic.
Whatever made you think this was a school or that you were conducting an interrogation? You got a response and are now afraid to reply to your own question you so desperately want to answer for yourself.
YOU have tried to change the topic regarding the damning Uighurs video that was linked. It's a tactic to curtail a discussion on what actually is relevant to the thread. That's ok, the video is out there, and perhaps there will be more. It is an example of the lengths people will go to avoid seeing something truthful, yet against what want to believe.
Whatever made you think this was a school or that you were conducting an interrogation? You got a response and are now afraid to reply to your own question you so desperately want to answer for yourself.
YOU have tried to change the topic regarding the damning Uighurs video that was linked. It's a tactic to curtail a discussion on what actually is relevant to the thread. That's ok, the video is out there, and perhaps there will be more. It is an example of the lengths people will go to avoid seeing something truthful, yet against what want to believe.
When you refer to the "damning Uyghurs" video, are you referring to these? The drone footage, the leaked files?
Or the video you posted, which is nothing particularly special? Early on in the video, she asks why if there's a genocide, how come there isn't a refugee crisis with hundreds of thousands of people rushing the border, and why we don't see photos of bodies in mass graves? This shows a complete and total misunderstanding -wilful or otherwise - about the situation in China when it comes to laws around journalism and censorship, as well as internal migration. There is no way for there to be a surge of hundreds of thousands of people to their borders because they would be met with hundreds of thousands of soldiers turning them back and punishing them. China's main agenda with its projection to the outside world is to put up a show of progress, strength, and harmony. It does everything it can to prevent anything to the contrary getting out, and thus there is never anything negative in any state-controlled media. To have a mass exodus of an ethnic minority would be an insane loss of face. This isn't like other nations where the government doesn't care if an undesirable minority bounces out, or they are simply powerless to stop it; China's entire state security apparatus is structured to prevent things like this from happening.
Additionally, these are the same points that the CCP and its propaganda channels make. Here, Kim Iversen interviews Danny Haiphong, who gushes about how wonderful the integration and preservation of the Uyghur culture is in Xinjiang. Danny Haiphong writes editorials for CGTN, the English-language Chinese propaganda arm, and is co-editor of Socialist Friends of China. In many of his articles, he refers to the US as the "American Empire," and of his trip to China (a few years ago), he said:
Quote:
"China is a land of bullet trains and rising standards of living, in contrast to the decay of the imperial center, the United States."
So, as far as him being taken as a credible, impartial voice? Lol.
Kim herself shils for China and Russia and basically doesn't question the idea that China will overtake the US and dominate the world, that Putin has masterfully outmaneuvered the West, to an embarrassing degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Iversen, 2/24/22
Ukraine shouldn’t fight back. No one should. Let it go.
...
If Ukraine fights back it will be devastating and the outcome won’t be any different. They can’t fight Russia on this, no one can. Best to let it go for now and use democracy in the future. Don’t kill yourselves. Seriously.
So, ultimately, your video doesn't prove anything other than you agree with conspiracy theorists and apologists for authoritarian governments. You, like her and Mr. Haiphong, refer to China as having an unshakable upward trajectory of "progress," which was rife in Western media prior to 2020, and still existed through much of last year as well, regardless of the warning signs or actual incidents which were showing this to be untrue.
Taking a view contrary to the status quo doesn't automatically mean you have a point, let alone are right. This is one of the things that people who fall for this propaganda or the various conspiracy theories that people like Ms. Iversen repeat: the US/western/neoliberal globalists' actions in many situations is repugnant and amoral, no debate there. But that doesn't mean that rival or adversarial nations like China or Russia are "better," or they are more trustworthy.
I found it interesting that western media for years has made statements about millions being tortured or killed as if it were a fact. Turns out evidence doesn't show this to be true.
According to the video the Uyghurs weren't subject to the 1 child policy, so there wasn't an effort to stifle their numbers like that either. It seems they along with the rest of China are now subject to the 3 child policy.
I never agreed that the Uyghurs were being subjected to a "genocide" in the sense that it's going to evoke in most Westerners' minds - i.e., a holocaust-style network of literal death camps. I don't doubt that there are efforts to suppress their culture or religion - I remember when all of the Lanzhou lamian/Xinjiang/Muslim restaurants in Guangzhou and Shenzhen had to cover up any Arabic script or references to Halal food on their signage, and they were in most instances literally painted or taped over.
I believe the large body of evidence of mass and largely unnecessary and reactionary incarceration, of re-education to supplant their ethnic cultural beliefs with that of mainstream Han Chinese culture. Someone who is Uyghur but plays to the party line and disassociates themselves from other local concerns will most likely manage to avoid being thrown into a re-education camp, though they would still be under stricklt scrutiny. I can't go into too many details because I don't want her family to suffer any negative repercussions, but I know a young woman whose mother is Uyghur but whose family joined the party in the 1950's/60's, and whose father is Han. Both are party members, and she grew up relatively well-off, in urban areas, with no issues. She is cagey about the Uyghur topic, but when candid, does note that things aren't exactly the oh-so-wonderful world of spontaneous song and dance in town squares that seem to be the norm for state-sponsored "influencer" videos.
People with rural hukou were allowed two children, and so were most ethnic minorities - not just Uyghurs. This is the case with my wife and her brother. So, considering that the Uyghurs are a) nearly all rural hukou holders, and b) an official minority, this isn't particularly special or shocking. But again, considering that neither Ms. Iversen, nor Mr. Haiphong nor yourself are actually experts on China or, to my knowledge, have lived there, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to know that...
Quote:
According to the video the 'slave labor' charge is also likely trumped up.
This is an independent journalist not beholden to any particular narrative.
We don't know who pays Ms. Iversen what, but we do know that her entire worldview is one where the US and West is in inevitable decline, the East is rising, nothing can be done to stop it, and she also pays lip service to or outright pushes conspiracy theories. She is beholden to those that pay attention to her and keep her career going; to that end, she certainly has a narrative and agenda to keep to.
Mr. Haiphong is directly employed by Chinese state media and also makes his narrative and agenda very clear
Neither of these people are any more trustworthy than Tucker Carlson or Anderson Cooper, if even that.
Quote:
Motive:
Video discusses reasons for the western likely phony narratives being FEAR. China is working too hard and making too much progress. By attempting to divide China, and by attempting to create rancor among its peoples and peoples of other nations the US benefits in the world of competition/money.
I think the US realizes it is unable to compete well enough if the playing field is level. If that is the case our efforts are to stigmatize, and create a military type of excuse. Truth isn't important to the US. To this point the tactic isn't working, but because we almost have to, I think we will find a way to eventually instigate China. Maybe Taiwan, maybe somewhere else. US military is trotting around the globe whereas China military has been confined to their own region. So, it shouldn't be a surprise who the instigators/meddlers/aggressors are.
Many have no trust in Western media sources, I don't doubt Chinese media sources are also suspect. Without hard verified evidence (By an impartial party), charges are only charges and likely exaggerated or straight hot air.
Talking about the truth being unimportant to the US while pushing what amounts to CCP party propaganda, all the while completely ignoring the actual news and data coming out of China in regards to its economic, social, and political realities, getting on a soapbox to reiterate these points and refusing to get off the topic of this one video, doesn't indicate to me that you've actually put much research or thought into any of this.
If China's real estate collapses, I will lose a lot of money. I own real estate in China.
If China's economy collapses, I will lose a lot of money. I still have money in Chinese banks.
If China's economy collapses, my family stands to suffer from economic hardships.
The prolonged zero COVID situation prevents me from seeing my family and friends.
I don't have a positive interest in China "failing" or collapsing; neither does Camlon. However, it also doesn't do us any favors to be the band who plays on while the ship is sinking. No one wants to be caught holding the bag. Again, taking a position that's counter to the common narrative doesn't make that position valid. There are complex reasons that the US has, and will continue to be, the dominant global power for a significant amount of time to come. It's not a zero sum game where China or the US' premacy causes the other to lose all standing - China and the US both have spheres of influence.
When I look at China, I don't see a nation whose hard work ethic is exceptional or unique. I don't see one whose destiny guaranteed, or is forged in history or by virtue or right of its people. I see a nation that grew too fast and was too self assured, too naive, that now finds itself facing a series of crises it lacks the ability to navigate out of. Anyone who is actually paying attention to what's going on there would likely feel the same.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
