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I never agreed that the Uyghurs were being subjected to a "genocide" in the sense that it's going to evoke in most Westerners' minds - i.e., a holocaust-style network of literal death camps. I don't doubt that there are efforts to suppress their culture or religion - I remember when all of the Lanzhou lamian/Xinjiang/Muslim restaurants in Guangzhou and Shenzhen had to cover up any Arabic script or references to Halal food on their signage, and they were in most instances literally painted or taped over.
I believe the large body of evidence of mass and largely unnecessary and reactionary incarceration, of re-education to supplant their ethnic cultural beliefs with that of mainstream Han Chinese culture. Someone who is Uyghur but plays to the party line and disassociates themselves from other local concerns will most likely manage to avoid being thrown into a re-education camp, though they would still be under stricklt scrutiny. I can't go into too many details because I don't want her family to suffer any negative repercussions, but I know a young woman whose mother is Uyghur but whose family joined the party in the 1950's/60's, and whose father is Han. Both are party members, and she grew up relatively well-off, in urban areas, with no issues. She is cagey about the Uyghur topic, but when candid, does note that things aren't exactly the oh-so-wonderful world of spontaneous song and dance in town squares that seem to be the norm for state-sponsored "influencer" videos.
People with rural hukou were allowed two children, and so were most ethnic minorities - not just Uyghurs. This is the case with my wife and her brother. So, considering that the Uyghurs are a) nearly all rural hukou holders, and b) an official minority, this isn't particularly special or shocking. But again, considering that neither Ms. Iversen, nor Mr. Haiphong nor yourself are actually experts on China or, to my knowledge, have lived there, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to know that...
We don't know who pays Ms. Iversen what, but we do know that her entire worldview is one where the US and West is in inevitable decline, the East is rising, nothing can be done to stop it, and she also pays lip service to or outright pushes conspiracy theories. She is beholden to those that pay attention to her and keep her career going; to that end, she certainly has a narrative and agenda to keep to.
Mr. Haiphong is directly employed by Chinese state media and also makes his narrative and agenda very clear
Neither of these people are any more trustworthy than Tucker Carlson or Anderson Cooper, if even that.
Talking about the truth being unimportant to the US while pushing what amounts to CCP party propaganda, all the while completely ignoring the actual news and data coming out of China in regards to its economic, social, and political realities, getting on a soapbox to reiterate these points and refusing to get off the topic of this one video, doesn't indicate to me that you've actually put much research or thought into any of this.
If China's real estate collapses, I will lose a lot of money. I own real estate in China.
If China's economy collapses, I will lose a lot of money. I still have money in Chinese banks.
If China's economy collapses, my family stands to suffer from economic hardships.
The prolonged zero COVID situation prevents me from seeing my family and friends.
I don't have a positive interest in China "failing" or collapsing; neither does Camlon. However, it also doesn't do us any favors to be the band who plays on while the ship is sinking. No one wants to be caught holding the bag. Again, taking a position that's counter to the common narrative doesn't make that position valid. There are complex reasons that the US has, and will continue to be, the dominant global power for a significant amount of time to come. It's not a zero sum game where China or the US' premacy causes the other to lose all standing - China and the US both have spheres of influence.
When I look at China, I don't see a nation whose hard work ethic is exceptional or unique. I don't see one whose destiny guaranteed, or is forged in history or by virtue or right of its people. I see a nation that grew too fast and was too self assured, too naive, that now finds itself facing a series of crises it lacks the ability to navigate out of. Anyone who is actually paying attention to what's going on there would likely feel the same.
I pay plenty of attention and don't feel this way at all. It's best to reframe from making blanket generalizations. As a wise litigation specialist once told me "never assume people think like you." I'm curious though, in your opinion in what way could China have better handled its rise?
Insofar as my comfort 'getting off the topic of this Uighur video', I'm all over the website talking about many other issues, it appeared the other poster was simply interested in derailing this subject/video, so I wasn't interested in further indulging him on this thread
You were the one who initially tried to argue that China is doing great. If you don't want to defend it, then don't say it.
I would have talked about the Uighur video afterwards, but I target the most obvious mistakes first. You had no problems to argue in the beginning, but when the questions become uncomfortable for you, then you refused to answer some of my questions and derailed your own debate.
I don't have a positive interest in China "failing" or collapsing; neither does Camlon. However, it also doesn't do us any favors to be the band who plays on while the ship is sinking. No one wants to be caught holding the bag.
Agree. I don't want China to fail, I want people to realize that China has already derailed. You can't fix your problems if you don't even acknowledge them and think your rise is a guaranteed destiny.
Earlier, China-skeptics predicted that China would fail, but we are not talking about predictions anymore. Bad international relationships, lockdowns, high youth unemployment, low birth rate, high property prices with declining sales, the collapse of several sectors, restriction on travel are the reality today. I wouldn't mind that much if they tried to fix it, but they don't and seem to think youths lack of patriotism, Omicron and Taiwan are bigger problems.
Nice lie to start things off. Where did I say china was 'doing great'? Nowhere of course.
You have constantly been saying that China is doing great.
"I've been hearing about China crisis for several years, yet they seem to be steaming along better than most"
"Video discusses reasons for the western likely phony narratives being FEAR. China is working too hard and making too much progress."
"If things are already going well enough for China, as indicated by their soaring trade surpluses, why do they have to invest more at this time?"
"There's a slowdown but it hasn't slowed down for China."
"So far, the tactic is mostly failing as China continues to make progress."
"You provide a good example of why we USA'ians are getting outcompeted by China."
And then you start complaining that we go off-topic when someone answers your repeated attempts at telling us how great China is doing.
Quote:
Your 'questions' were responded to, YOU were not comfortable with those responses, so YOU decided to flip out, start arguing and demanding answers. You had your own answers in mind obviously which you feared to state for some reason.
Responding is not the same as answering. You refused to answer my questions, which you even admitted yourself in post 149.
"Ha! I have no interest nor am under no obligation to answer your deflective off-topic questions."
I don't have an answer in mind, I designed the question so that any answer will undermine your position that China's international position is improving. That is also why the question made you uncomfortable and you refused to answer.
Its also quite interesting that you claim you don't want to answer, because its off-topic, but keep bringing the same topic up to another user even after our discussion has ended and is more than happy to have an off-topic debate about our discussion.
I note some questions were asked of you during the exchanges, that you didn't answer. Seems rather cowardly to try to demand certain answers (By your design) and yet refuse to address questions that were asked of you. Post 154 & 146.
I asked you first. When you stop refusing to answer, then we can continue the debate and I will answer any of your questions.
Also, I didn't say you refuse to respond, I said you refuse to answer. This is the second time you admit that you refused to answer. Post 146: "Ha! I have no interest nor am under no obligation to answer your deflective off-topic questions." Post 170: "It was a good decision to stop answering your questions"
...to YOUR satisfaction. It is foolish of you to be dependent on me to respond in a way that satisfies you.
Lol. Again, I said "answer" not "respond".
Your attempts at changing my word "answer" to "respond" so you can have an argument to attack is pathetic.
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