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That's assuming that they were not declassified by Trump prior to his leaving office. You're writing with many assumptions that run counter to at least what Trump's office is stating. If the documents were declassified by Trump (and a president has wide discretion to declassify documents at will and not subject to any formal procedure as outlined here: https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...y-anything-an/), then what you write does not apply.
Also, as I wrote in my immediately preceding post, the point about the Presidential Records Act only applies to official records as opposed to duplicate copies, etc. The PRA was written in a very different age where the internet and electronic indexing, scanning, and storage (and the mass duplication of such files) were not a thing or otherwise not common.
Then all Mr. Trump needs to do is provide proof that he declassified the documents. Ought to be simple, since there would be a paper trail.
Right after that, he can explain to all the nice folks at home why the documents were a thousand miles from where they needed to be to be legally controlled by NARA per the Presidential Records Act.
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter View Post
From Fox:
“ Trump 'will do whatever' he can to 'help the country' after FBI raid: 'Temperature has to be brought down'
Trump said his representatives reached out to DOJ to offer to help amid outrage over the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago”
Who’d have guessed this would play right into his re-election appeal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by r small
What exactly has Trump done or said to lower the temperature so far?
Sure, but that only concerns official records, not duplicate copies. The Presidential Records Act was written in a time before the internet and mass electronic indexing/scanning/etc. The mere fact that someone covered by the act has tangible property in their possession is not inherently a smoking gun.
So, people saying that "documents" were found tells me little.
In any event, there is a process for retrieving documents held contrary to the PRA and it doesn't involve the FBI raiding a presidential office; the act actually lacks an enforcement mechanism: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-look-...ntial-records/. That's not to say that presidents are still not bound to abide by the law, but I write this to focus on appropriate response to potential violations of the act as inappropriate responses call into question their legal basis and appropriateness.
Where did you find information that the Presidential Records Act doesn't include copies?
Before there were Xerox machines, they had this stuff called carbon paper that allowed one to type multiple copies of a document at once, on a typewriter. That was available in the 1970s and prior.
There was another process for making copies called a photostat that was available long before the 1970s.
Last edited by ansible90; 08-15-2022 at 08:59 AM..
Then all Mr. Trump needs to do is provide proof that he declassified the documents. Ought to be simple, since there would be a paper trail.
Right after that, he can explain to all the nice folks at home why the documents were a thousand miles from where they needed to be to be legally controlled by NARA per the Presidential Records Act.
All the seized docs were classified?
Not even close.
This will be a long and lawyerly negotiated process.
Sure, but that only concerns official records, not duplicate copies. The Presidential Records Act was written in a time before the internet and mass electronic indexing/scanning/etc. The mere fact that someone covered by the act has tangible property in their possession is not inherently a smoking gun.
So, people saying that "documents" were found tells me little.
In any event, there is a process for retrieving documents held contrary to the PRA and it doesn't involve the FBI raiding a presidential office; the act actually lacks an enforcement mechanism: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-look-...ntial-records/. That's not to say that presidents are still not bound to abide by the law, but I write this to focus on appropriate response to potential violations of the act as inappropriate responses call into question their legal basis and appropriateness.
Every document tells its own story. Copy or original.
Duplicate copies could become Presidential Records depending on what actions were taken with them.
If Trump reviewed a copy of something given to him and put a note on it for Ivanka to read and discuss with him. It becomes a Presidential Record.
We are where we are now because NARA followed the process. Early in that process, Team Trump sent 15 boxes back to them. NARA became alarmed that some of them were classified. Whether because they were still marked classified or because the info was so sensitive they couldn't understand why it wasn't classified I don't know. In any case, they contacted DOJ to report this and ask them to check it out.
They started talking about impeachment prior to trump ever being elected....
That wasn't me.
But the evidence of Russia alarmingly interfering in the election then the resultant knowledge that these efforts were done on his behalf was already well known before the election so perhaps that is why.
It makes sense really. What better way to get back at the USA than to make sure our president is an incompetent and morally bankrupt boob? It's perfect!
I didn't like Trump because he was already two notches below a decent human being before he wanted to run. I didn't think he was qualified, but I didn't think he should be impeached until he was shown to have obstructed justice.
You have to understand that just because someone takes a position, or advocates for something, that doesn't mean the entire political party or group is on board with that. It is usually just a small number of people.
That would be like observing Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones saying some crazy stuff and assuming the whole Republican Party thinks the same way. That is almost never the case and is extremely unlikely.
But the 'narrative' was always the 'Dems' were out to get him. That wasn't the case. He does stuff and then gets found out.
When Trump was finally investigated for the first time, it was by Republicans, because they were doing their jobs. It was Trump's own DOJ which named him 'Individual One' in the campaign finance fraud investigation. I am sure that if they could have ignored the offenses, they would prefer to have, but in that case it could not because they had to do their job.
Then you people blamed it on the 'Dems'. The blame falls squarely on Trump.
The man has always been a cheat and a thief and an abuser. He gets into trouble because that's how he is. He has only himself to blame.
So you don't like it. So what? If you are angry that Trump gets himself into trouble blame Trump. He is the only one who could possibly have prevented it.
Adam Schiff needs new material. The old collusion/insurrection fantasies are fading fast even amongst the long- haul TDSers.
I have no idea how Adam Schiff or collusion/insurrection fantasies come into this, but I do suggest reading the document, which you'll note was updated in 2018, and it's astoundingly thorough when it comes to who can classify and declassify nuclear documents. I spent several hours last night and this morning reviewing it. (The link to the DOE ruling is in one of my previous posts.) Trump and his supporters are arguing that he had the unilateral power to declassify at his whim and had issued a standing order for declassification of any document he took to Mar-a-Lago. What I'm saying is that the DOE issued a ruling during Trump's time as president that does not specifically support his statement. I think that's why so many members of the GOP, apart from the crackpots and true believers, are calling for everyone to take a breath rather than jumping to defend Trump's actions out of hand. There are many who, what, where, when, why, and how questions yet to be answered that could carry very serious consequences for the former president and members of his administration. And given how explosive this could end up being, I am firmly in favor of the DOJ taking as much time as it needs to answer those questions before taking any further action.
Stop repeating DNC lies about the security of the documents. This isn't some McDonald's building, but a building secured 24/7 by the United States Secret Service where only individuals who have undergone background checks are even allowed close to Donald Trump and his personal living spaces. You and the Dems are acting like any Tom, Dick and Harry had access to the locked file cabinet
Just like the physical security of Hillary's email server, there was no risk that some unauthorized person was gaining access to those documents. Unlike Hillary's server, however, we aren't talking about electronic records and information connected to the internet and accessible by bad actors via cyber hacking, etc.
You think Trump gave the Secret Service a list of all Mar A Lago members so they could do background checks on all the members and guests of the resort?
One of the storage rooms that was searched was next to the pool. Who do you think passed by that door or hallway on their way to the pool?
That's a foolish point you made there.
Last edited by ansible90; 08-15-2022 at 09:03 AM..
Then all Mr. Trump needs to do is provide proof that he declassified the documents. Ought to be simple, since there would be a paper trail.
Right after that, he can explain to all the nice folks at home why the documents were a thousand miles from where they needed to be to be legally controlled by NARA per the Presidential Records Act.
Actually, no. As the politifact article I posted goes over, a president is not subject to any formal declassification process. The executive orders on classification and declassification--issued by the president and not some prescribed laws--don't apply to the president.
I'll post more:
Quote:
Experts agreed that the president, as commander-in-chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. When someone lower in the chain of command handles classification and declassification duties -- which is usually how it’s done -- it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.
The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan -- which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance -- addresses this line of authority.
"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. "His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, said that such authority gives the president the authority to "classify and declassify at will."
In fact, Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law, said that "if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues."
The only question is whether the president did declassify a document. But, since there is no formal process for proving or requiring a president to declassify something, his word on declassification decision necessarily has to be enough.
And as I addressed multiple points on the presidential records act as well.
This is like when the Navy claimed to not implement an order from the president because he Tweeted it via coming through formal Naval communications channels. But the Navy lost that battle as it isn't up to the Navy to decide how it receives orders from the president.
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