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If you define genocide as the deliberate extiction of an ethnicity or race then no, The United States didn't practice genocide.
What The United States did practice was conquest. But as long as Indians did as the American government required of them they were allowed to live. Of course what was required was often unjust but there's a difference between injustice and genocide.
Indian resistance and rebellion was often put down with great brutality but I don't think brutally crushing rebellion is genocide either. And no matter the reasons there is absolutely no way that The United States killed as many Indians as the Germans killed Jews. It's generally accepted that the Germans killed 6 million Jews.
There's no doubt that many millions of Indians died from Old World diseases but this die-off was not a matter of policy and so shouldn't be considered genocide. Indeed the Spaniards were sorely tried by this great dying as to the Spaniards the Indians of the New World were a great part of it's wealth. How many Indians there were when the Europeans showed up is a matter of controversy with low counters and high counters making their cases, it seems that currently the high counters have the better argument.
Some people define genocide more liberally than I do.
Last edited by Irishtom29; 06-12-2008 at 10:58 AM..
If you define genocide as the deliberate extiction of an ethnicity or race then no, The United States didn't practice genocide.
What The United States did practice was conquest. But as long as Indians did as the American government required of them they were allowed to live. Of course what was required was often unjust but there's a difference between injustice and genocide.
Indian resistance and rebellion was often put down with great brutality but I don't think brutally crushing rebellion is genocide either. And no matter the reasons there is absolutely no way that The United States killed as many Indians as the Germans killed Jews. It's generally accepted that the Germans killed 6 million Jews.
There's no doubt that many millions of Indians died from Old World diseases but this die-off was not a matter of policy and so shouldn't be considered genocide. Indeed the Spaniards were sorely tried by this great dying as to the Spaniards the Indians of the New World were a great part of it's wealth. How many Indians there were when the Europeans showed up is a matter of controversy with low counters and high counters making their cases, it seems that currently the high counters have the better argument.
Some people define genocide more liberally than I do.
I'm pretty much in agreement. Having a spouse who's an Indian (she thinks 'native American' sounds a little stuffy) I have many thoughts on this. There is no doubt whatsoever, that in many cases, horribly inhumane things were done, and there was a real "cavalier" attitude toward this. President Andrew Jackson, among others, was pretty well-known to HATE Indians..and he was well-respected.
Yet I still object to the term "genocide". Life was harsh and brutal, and inhumanity was 'par for the course', for most of the human race, for most of our history...and in MANY places, this still holds true today.
I was often amazed at the pragmatic attitude of my parents-in-law when they were alive. They had a sense of humor I could only envy, and the general feeling was that "the past is gone, and we're here now, and we're a lot better off than we'd have been, had we never been 'conquered' "..or words to that effect. There was a lack of self-pity that might amaze many out there in the 'world at large'.
I could go on and on with examples, but won't. Genocide? I don't think it was that single-minded, nor that organized. Maybe "treated like children"? "Marginalized"? "Not always respected"?...for sure. But not really genocide. For every evil murderer of Indians, and every 'treaty-breaker', there were plenty of whites who recognized the evil, made efforts to 'help', and generally had good intentions (if not always the 'brightest ideas'). So no. it wasn't genocide.
Actually, from a televised city council meeting I saw several years ago, 'genocide' is "what the L.A.P.D. is doing to the people of South Central"...but in my opinion, that, too, is just a BIT of an overstatement...
If you define genocide as the deliberate extiction of an ethnicity or race then no, The United States didn't practice genocide.
What The United States did practice was conquest. But as long as Indians did as the American government required of them they were allowed to live. Of course what was required was often unjust but there's a difference between injustice and genocide.
Indian resistance and rebellion was often put down with great brutality but I don't think brutally crushing rebellion is genocide either. And no matter the reasons there is absolutely no way that The United States killed as many Indians as the Germans killed Jews. It's generally accepted that the Germans killed 6 million Jews.
There's no doubt that many millions of Indians died from Old World diseases but this die-off was not a matter of policy and so shouldn't be considered genocide. Indeed the Spaniards were sorely tried by this great dying as to the Spaniards the Indians of the New World were a great part of it's wealth. How many Indians there were when the Europeans showed up is a matter of controversy with low counters and high counters making their cases, it seems that currently the high counters have the better argument.
Some people define genocide more liberally than I do.
Once again the patriotic American circle tries to paint a pretty picture of what really happened during the European settlement of America. Of course you don't want to consider what happened genocide, because no one wants to think that we, the chosen wise ones, would have ever committed such atrocities. But it happened and no amount of sugar-coating or word play will change that. And so what if the tribes warred amongst each other. White men have done nothing but war with each other in their respective territories since the beginning of recorded history. Does that make it alright for us to have come to this new world and slaughter innocent people in the name of imperial growth and wealth. You just don't want to entertain the thought of your good people committing such an unbelievably inhuman act. And just so everyone can know exactly what "genocide" really means, I have included the definition of genocide according to the UN Convention in Dec. 1948. Stop lying to yourselves about what happened right here in our own country in the not so distant past. You are not responsible for the sins of your forefathers. But it is your responsibility to accept past events and admit they were wrong.
Genocide by provision of the UN Convention, Dec. 1948 is defined as follows: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. Also includes a list of 5 types of criminal actions.
Killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or part, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
Hitler may have been more organized in his efforts to kill the Jews, Gypsies, etc. But what he did is no different than what we did to the Native Americans. We crossed their borders, we gave them our rules to follow, and when they would not obey, we slaughtered them.
Once again the patriotic American circle tries to paint a pretty picture of what really happened during the European settlement of America. Of course you don't want to consider what happened genocide, because no one wants to think that we, the chosen wise ones, would have ever committed such atrocities. But it happened and no amount of sugar-coating or word play will change that. And so what if the tribes warred amongst each other. White men have done nothing but war with each other in their respective territories since the beginning of recorded history. Does that make it alright for us to have come to this new world and slaughter innocent people in the name of imperial growth and wealth. You just don't want to entertain the thought of your good people committing such an unbelievably inhuman act. And just so everyone can know exactly what "genocide" really means, I have included the definition of genocide according to the UN Convention in Dec. 1948. Stop lying to yourselves about what happened right here in our own country in the not so distant past. You are not responsible for the sins of your forefathers. But it is your responsibility to accept past events and admit they were wrong.
Genocide by provision of the UN Convention, Dec. 1948 is defined as follows: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. Also includes a list of 5 types of criminal actions.
Killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or part, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
Hitler may have been more organized in his efforts to kill the Jews, Gypsies, etc. But what he did is no different than what we did to the Native Americans. We crossed their borders, we gave them our rules to follow, and when they would not obey, we slaughtered them.
I didn't deny anything except your notion of what genocide is. Your notion (and the UN's) is so wide as to make almost any war into "genocide". If forcing the Indians of Illinois to move to Kansas and Oklahoma was "genocide" then we need a new word to define what went on at Auschwitz and Buchenwald.
Your saying that what happened to the Indians at our hands is no different than what the Germans did to the Jews is ridiculous. What gives the lie to your statement is that after more than 200 years there are many Indians in The United States, in ony four years the Germans damned near exterminated the Jews in the areas they controlled. "Exterminated" as in killed everyone, root and branch. Not "killed enough to make the rest give up and go back to the reservation", no EXTERMINATED.
Give me an example of any Indian nation that The United States government exterminated or even attempted to exterminate. You can't. Not to mention some Indian nations that were allies of The United States such as The Pawnees, Rees and Crows. Funny way to commit genocide, arming people and using them as military allies.
In any event live on land taked from Indians and I intend to stay here. There's no excuse for giving modern Indians a raw deal but they're never gonna get Kentucky back as a private game preserve.
What about the Indian Genocide against the settlers?
Read some history. Fort Parker Massacre is a good start.
It was common practice for them to drag captured white babies from a running horse so that the baby's body would shred up with arms, legs, and head detaching.
What about the Indian Genocide against the settlers?
Read some history. Fort Parker Massacre is a good start.
It was common practice for them to drag captured white babies from a running horse so that the baby's body would shred up with arms, legs, and head detaching.
And dragging white babies till they burst apart was only part of it. They would train-rape captured settler women.
Before someone starts yabbering on about supposed genocide caused by European settlers, people need to get their facts straight. This "You owe me!" bit is all about making money at the expense of tax payers who don't know their history.
This whole "You owe me!" bit is just a way to pry cash out of the wallets of taxpayers who don't know their history.
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