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The issue is then not about private and public coexisting.. as they already do. The issue then becomes taking that households tax dollars paid toward PUBLIC education (education for ALL) and removing it from the public system and giving it to a PRIVATE institution instead because the parent "chose" private school.
The European countries already mentioned in this thread don't have a problem with publicly funding both public and private schools. Their goal is education of their children, period. The goal here seems to be to maintain the public school monopoly.
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Now.. I'm not SAYING with this example that Private is better.. but there is a PERCEPTION out there that Private schools are "the best" right? And every parent wants to give their child "The BEST".
Now.. let's use an anology here using peoples PERCEPION of public vs. Private. You have a KIA and you have a LEXUS and for your property taxes that you pay toward education you have your "choice" of taking the KIA or the LEXUS. LOL.. Well.. what do you think EVERYONE will choose..
They'll choose the LEXUS (obviously the Lexus represents peoples perception of private). BUT there are only so many Lexus's to give out. AND everyon'e tax contributions to the school system is NOT the same because everyone's property values are different. One family lives in a 2 million dollar home another in a 200K home. That home for 2 mill pays $20K in property taxes a year and the $200K pays lets say $5K a year.
So, when a private institution finds itself with more students wanting in then they are able to handle, what do you think will happen?
They will admit who they can and everyone else will have to look for their next best alternative. This is exactly how the post-secondary (college, university) system works in our country, and we have some of the best colleges and universities in the world. Many of those better educated foreign students come HERE to study in our universities. Not only that - PUBLIC funding is ROUTINELY given to private colleges and universities (Pell Grants, etc.). ...In contrast, our K-12 system is near or at the bottom of the industrialized world.
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Well obviously the school, which is private and operates for profit, is going to WANT the children who's cut of the tax dollars they'll recieve much more and so you find that those in the lower price range, therefore lower tax payment homes, are choosen LAST.
The public spending per student follows the student, not what each individual family pays in property taxes.
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Remember.. they are a PRIVATE institution. Government CAN NOT dictate to a private institution WHO they let in or not nor how much they can charge for their services.
There are selective enrollment public schools that let in who they want. Just as an example, quite a few exist in Chicago. The sad part is that there are 8 applicants for every opening. That makes these schools harder to get into than many of the top colleges - the schools have a ~12% admission rate. The Chicago Public Schools could open many more selective enrollment schools to meet parent/community demand - and the top heavy application/opening ratio is clearly an indication that parents/community members want better schools - but the CPS refuses to do so.
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Also, commercial property pays into a tax base for public education.. so how do you determine who gets those funds.. the private institution or the public?
Again, the spending per student amount follows the student.
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There are way too many problems and issues with allowing public funds to be sent to private institutions..
In your mind, yes. In the European countries that have no problem with this, no.
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Rather.. the TRUE solution to the problem of education is the need to overhaul and update our curriculums and teaching methods and figure out ways within the public system to deal with children that are not performing.
That would be funny if it weren't so sad. Public schools have been claiming to do EXACTLY that for decades. The only thing they've succeeded at is making things worse.
The European countries already mentioned in this thread don't have a problem with publicly funding both public and private schools. Their goal is education of their children, period. The goal here seems to be to maintain the public school monopoly.
That's fine for Europe.. because that's the system they already have in place. HOWEVER.. we are ingrained in our system.. our taxes are structured for it..etc. What happens to all those school buildings once they are no longer filled with students. Your response doesn't answer ANY of the issues that arise out of such a system .. NOT ONE
They will admit who they can and everyone else will have to look for their next best alternative. This is exactly how the post-secondary (college, university) system works in our country, and we have some of the best colleges and universities in the world. Many of those better educated foreign students come HERE to study in our universities. Not only that - PUBLIC funding is ROUTINELY given to private colleges and universities (Pell Grants, etc.). ...In contrast, our K-12 system is near or at the bottom of the industrialized world.
There is a HUGE difference between a COLLEGE education and an elementary and secondary education . The MAJOR difference is that elementary and secondary education are MANDATED by law.. college is not. Elementary and Secondary are important STAPLES of education, college is additional.
The public spending per student follows the student, not what each individual family pays in property taxes.
Ah.. and there are many problems with that. For one, the money recieved per SD or area from the "state" are supplemental to the property taxes collected by the county.. or specifically the SD to cover the schools. Atleast where I grew up. Certain sections of the state recieve more than other sections.. your idea is VERY flawed. Again.. School taxes are collected on a local level district by district..not even county by county and definately not state to state.
Again.. federal and state funding of schools is only supplemental to ease the property tax burden.
There are selective enrollment public schools that let in who they want. Just as an example, quite a few exist in Chicago. The sad part is that there are 8 applicants for every opening. That makes these schools harder to get into than many of the top colleges - the schools have a ~12% admission rate. The Chicago Public Schools could open many more selective enrollment schools to meet parent/community demand - and the top heavy application/opening ratio is clearly an indication that parents/community members want better schools, but the CPS refuses to do so.
Well.. again.. that's in Chicago. No such system exists where I grew up. And if it did.. you better bet people would be up in arms. How is admission determined? Is it farily? Im' sure there is money under the table by those who have extra to get their child admitted.. and to think that doesn't happen is purely nieve.
Again, the spending per student amount follows the student.
AGain.. that doesn't work. You can't dictated to a private institution how much to charge.
In your mind, yes. In the European countries that have no problem with this, no.
Again.. they've had it from it's inception. Your answer doens't address any of the problems I've mentioned pertaining to this issue. NOt one.. Your answer is not sufficient. It's NOT in my mind. . I've laid it out there for you.. and I've only hit the tip of the iceberg.. you are deflecting with an non answer answer.
That would be funny if it weren't so sad. Public schools have been claiming to do EXACTLY that for decades. The only thing they've succeeded at is making things worse.
Maybe in your area but from my perspective and in my area not all public schools are failing... AGAIN>> ONE MORE TIME.. the problems DEPEND on the SD, how THAT district is run etc. The ones I've encountered are doing just great and getting people some great education!
AGAIN.. and NO .. they haven't been addressing the real problems.. they've just been throwing money at it.. which doesn't do anything!! It's time to realize it's not MONEY that is the issue.. curriculum and teaching techniques are what needs adjustments.. NOT how much money is dumped into the schools.. But unless and until the PEOPLE... namely you and me make the gov't aware of that, they'll continue to think that money will solve the problem..
BTW.. in an area where SD are zoned and tax base is then determined (againSD to SD) is the Private instituations WITHIN That SD the ones that that area kids get to choose.. or does a child from ...let's say a SD with a bigger commercial TAX base and lower taxes as a result get to choose a SD in an area that has no commercial base and higher property taxes .. (which again are deterimined by the area SD's needs?). AGain.. taxes for Schools and bases vary from town to town to town..
also.. on an Island like long Island with lots of traffic.. how do you get the child to the private school that they "choose" 30 minutes from home (and that's 30 minutes without traffic)?? see.. way too many complications and issues unique to each area and region .. your "solution" is going to cause way more problems than it will solve.
If you want to advocate for a voucher program.. do it on your local level.. but what works for your local level could mean diasaster for other areas of the country. There is no place for a NATIONAL voucher program in this country.. on your local level.. yes, maybe that's what works best. It doesn't for all areas.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 02-16-2009 at 09:18 AM..
Maybe in your area but from my perspective and in my area not all public schools are failing... AGAIN>> ONE MORE TIME.. the problems DEPEND on the SD, how THAT district is run etc. The ones I've encountered are doing just great and getting people some great education!
AGAIN.. and NO .. they haven't been addressing the real problems.. they've just been throwing money at it.. which doesn't do anything!! It's time to realize it's not MONEY that is the issue.. curriculum and teaching techniques are what needs adjustments.. NOT how much money is dumped into the schools.. But unless and until the PEOPLE... namely you and me make the gov't aware of that, they'll continue to think that money will solve the problem..
The problems with our public school system are not just in my area. I've already posted links to parents/community groups from all over the country that are ALL saying the same thing - the public schools aren't adequately educating their children. Given the fact that this is a RECURRING problem throughout the U.S., it would help if you expanded your perspective a bit. Your local focus and individual perspective that your education was fine is why you either can't, or refuse to, see the problem. This is not unlike an ostrich with its head stuck in the sand. Things are fine according to the ostrich's perspective.
And as far as improving curriculum and teaching techniques - good luck with ever fixing that... this is what we have to work with:
"In seeking reasons for the dismal state of contemporary education in the United States, Kramer focuses on teacher training. During the 1988-89 school year, she visited 14 schools of education in New York, Tennessee, Michigan, Southern California, Washington, and Texas, observing classes and interviewing students and professors. In this account, she concludes that most students are idealistic and eager, but are being misguided. She found students woefully ignorant of subject matter, while sometimes lacking in communication skills. Kramer maintains that new students are forced to abandon the instruction of information and knowledge in favor of theories in developing pupil self-esteem, indiscriminate passing, and reforming society. This will certainly be a controversial book. It presents a critical viewpoint and should be required reading for all school administrators, professors of education, prospective teachers, and concerned parents." - Library Journal
"Rita Kramer's extraordinary ethnography of schools of education opens one's eyes to many things, including the degree to which equality has driven out achievement in the ideals and practices taught to future teachers. All those concerned about what our children will learn and what tomorrow's adults will know should read this book." - James S. Coleman, Professor of Sociology and Education, University of Chicago
and, as already mentioned:
the 'equal outcomes' ideology is intentional social engineering. Where does the idea of equalizing educational outcomes come from? Just two examples:
Education and Social Cohesion: Recentering the Debate, The Peabody Journal of Education, Vanderbilt University, 76(3&4), 1-6 (2001)
The premise is depicted (as Figure 1) in the Journal article as follows:
"Educational Outcomes Equality => Income Equality => Social Cohesion" and explained as:
"Put simply, countries with education systems producing more equal outcomes in terms of skills and qualifications are likely to have more equal distribution of income, and this in turn promotes social cohesion."
and...
Professor Paul George (University of Florida - College of Education) in education seminars has stated that middle schools should become "the focus of societal experimentation, the vehicle for movement toward increasing justice and equality in the society as a whole... Schools are not about taking each child as far as he or she can go. They're about redistributing the wealth of the future." THE LIBERAL ASSAULT ON EXCELLENCE | National Center for Policy Analysis
Rather.. the TRUE solution to the problem of education is the need to overhaul and update our curriculums and teaching methods and figure out ways within the public system to deal with children that are not performing. ANd yes, public schools need efficiency improvements and tenure needs to be done away with (and I would say Unions too..as they are part of the problem with LI schools and high taxes). But these things CAN all be done if we all start focusing on improving public education rather than getting rid of of it all together.
Would you agree with NOT MIXING performers and non-performers in the same class?
The states I know allocate a portion of property taxes for education - the monies go to the general fund and the state then distributes the money to the schools (so much per pupil).
I support the voucher system that provides for that amount of allocated $$$'s be given to the parents to allow them to enroll their student in whatever school they want - be it public or private. If the private school tuition is more than the amount provided for in the voucher, then the parents need to make arrangements to pay the difference.
If the public schools see parents moving their children, especially because of the lack of performance of the public school, then the school / school district are going to have to find a way TO perform - or, close.
Would you agree with NOT MIXING performers and non-performers in the same class?
yes.. but that can be done in a public school environment. Problem students should be put in special classes where they recieve different attention or extra help.
Actually MY high school had that. It was called Special Ed and included students who were performing at a lower level than the rest... actually my elementary had it also because when I moved , in the first grade, from NY city public schools to my suburban SD, I was behind the rest of the students. Once I caught up I was moved into regular classes.
Informed Consent..
YOU are extremely thick headed in your answers. Your studies are INCOMPLETE.. and it DOES not take into consideration TONS of factors..
First.. it does not go to EVERY SCHOOL and EVERY SD in this country and evaluate ALL of them!!!
Secondly.. and this is HUGE.. IT DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR CULTURAL CHANGES IN THE LAST 10, 15 OR 20 YEARS.. that have occurred in our society. I can tell you from observing youth today compare dto when I was in school THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.. and I can GUARANTEE you that those differences ARE AFFECTING school performance..
Those studies MEAN NOTHING TO ME.. becasue AGAIN>.. they did not take into consideration EVERY single SCHOOL or DISTRICT in this country. THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY..
I'm all for you going to YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY and advocating for a voucher program IN YOUR DISTRICT or STATE..
BUT.. this is a NATIONAL forum.. and what works for YOUR areas.. or the areas of Schools that are having problems.. WILL NOT, CAN NOT work for the ENTIRE nation.. NOR does EVERY area of this country WANT a voucher school system in place.
So..if you REALLY want to argue the merits of a voucher system.. then I suggest you visit your local state boards and start a thread there on getting voucher systems approved on a STATE or REGIONAL level.
good luck with that!
BTW.. your social engineering theory is .. well flawed.. WHY? well because if that were true then all of us in an equal education environement would be making the same money.. guess what .. we're not..
some have gone on to become teachers, some have gone on to work adminstratively (and maybe bypass college) and some have become Dr's, Lawyers and so on. AND .. everyone is given the SAME OPPORTUNITY to get the foundations of their education in the elementary and secondary school levels.. THAT is the point.. OPPORTUNITY for ALL in public educaton. Income levels OF education is determined at the COLLEGE level and how FAR you take your education BEYOND the basic and MANDATED education level of elementary and secondary NOT at the elementary level.
However.. without the FOUNDATION of the mandated education attainment of higher education is not possible. And thereby when only the PRIVLEDGED have access to an education at the foundation level then ONLY the privleged can advance to a secondary education.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 02-16-2009 at 10:06 AM..
The states I know allocate a portion of property taxes for education - the monies go to the general fund and the state then distributes the money to the schools (so much per pupil).
I support the voucher system that provides for that amount of allocated $$$'s be given to the parents to allow them to enroll their student in whatever school they want - be it public or private. If the private school tuition is more than the amount provided for in the voucher, then the parents need to make arrangements to pay the difference.
If the public schools see parents moving their children, especially because of the lack of performance of the public school, then the school / school district are going to have to find a way TO perform - or, close.
AGain.. GD.. I don't argue the merits for you or other local areas where this system could work. But how taxes are distributd and schools are funded vary and it will not work in certain areas.
And.. it will not be wanted in certain areas.. where schools are closely tied into property values. If you suddenly did away with the structure of things , say on Long Island, then you would have many up in arms who paid more for their home to live in a certain district who will now loose that value because it no longer applies. And believe me, where I grew up your property value is closely tied to your home value. You coud have identical homes right next to each other.. one is in one district and one is in the other and the difference in price could be pretty big depending on the disrict.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 02-16-2009 at 10:11 AM..
yes.. but that can be done in a public school environment. Problem students should be put in special classes where they recieve different attention or extra help.
TM - I'm not talking about "problem" students. I'm talking about those who do not have the learning capacity as others. And right now, they cannot be seperated. Classes are "merged". The teachers have to teach to the "lowest" denominator - it adversely affects those students with the stronger learning capacity.
Also, ELL and ESL students are mixed in with those who speak English.
TM - I'm not talking about "problem" students. I'm talking about those who do not have the learning capacity as others. And right now, they cannot be seperated. Classes are "merged". The teachers have to teach to the "lowest" denominator - it adversely affects those students with the stronger learning capacity.
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Guess you've never heard of GATE?
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