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OK.....I guess that means that at certain points during gestation, it is NOT a human.
Happy now?
I was happy, then and now.
Correct.
My point is that to deny the humanity of a fetus, while theoretically possible in the early months, cannot be sustained during the entire gestation, i.e. that at sometimes it transitions from a mass of human cells, to a distinct human being.
At that point, IMHO, Abortion is, excepting special circumstances, MURDER!!!!
However, there is some punk around here that thinks I have nary a clue, none, zip, zero nil.
so you agree that a fetus is not a human being. Thanks. So why are you calling it murder?
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My point is that to deny the humanity of a fetus, while theoretically possible in the early months, cannot be sustained during the entire gestation, i.e. that at sometimes it transitions from a mass of human cells, to a distinct human being.
Since a fetus can't feel or experience humanity, this is a argument from your own opinions. NOT facts
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At that point, IMHO, Abortion is, excepting special circumstances, MURDER!!!!
And has shown your opinion means squat in the eyes of the law, since the LAW says Abortion isn't murder
My point is that to deny the humanity of a fetus, while theoretically possible in the early months, cannot be sustained during the entire gestation, i.e. that at sometimes it transitions from a mass of human cells, to a distinct human being.
At that point, IMHO, Abortion is, excepting special circumstances, MURDER!!!!
There are some extremely good reasons (both practical and spiritual) for relating to the infant, at the time of birth, as a distinct human being, and these reasons are an excellent basis for making sure that the infant has full legal protection - meaning that killing the infant would be murder. But from a social/biological perspective I think there are good reasons to say that the infant is not, in itself, a "distinct human being" until it is a year or two old. Again, there are extremely good reasons for us to regard the infant as a distinct, fully-human being, but it gains this status because we (wisely) relate to the infant as such. Parentally and politically failing to relate to the infant as if it were a fully human being would be monstrous, but there are certain circumstances in which it is useful to recognize a distinction between a socially constructed role and the reality of a "thing-in-itself." From "its own perspective" the infant gradually becomes a distinct human being over the first couple years of life - which is to say, it develops an awareness of itself as a "self" in relation to what it comes to recognized as the world (the not-self). Prior to this point it is, in itself, a potential human being, not a full-fledged distinct human being.
In all practical contexts it is good and wise to consider an infant to be a full-fledged distinct human being. In fact, in the context of a pregnant woman who wants to have a child, it is morally imperative that she relates to her fetus as her child - a full human being. Anything else would be horrifying. But in the context of a debate over abortion, I think it is misguided to say that the fetus truly becomes a distinct human being while it is still in the womb. In this context we "error on the side of caution" by saying that the fetus becomes a distinct human being at the point of birth, even though it won't really become a distinct human being for another year or two.
You're taking a life and deciding to end it. You take a life and then you make the "choice" to do so. Thats what murder is.
So how is it not considered murder? Abortion is taking a life. Just because a fetus is not born yet, does not mean its not a human. Thats how we all start.
We are all alive because our mothers gave birth to us and didnt end our lives in the womb.
It's simple, some people can abort a baby even during it's birth, because they do not consider a human fetus a living, human being, so they can remove it like an unsightly wart.
I have heard people state that until a baby takes their first breath of air, its considered a non-person. Other people have taken it even further, opting to allow newborns to lie unattended, to die in a closet after birth.
It's sort of the same mentality that some people acquire during war, they view their enemy as sub-human, and then feel justified in committing barbaric acts to them. In any other circumstances these actions would be viewed as immoral, unjust, and uncivilized, but not after you classify them as non-human, then, the sky is the limit.
If they are classified as non-humans, you can kill them for convenience sake, experiment upon them, or exploit them as a commodity. It's all about developing the proper perspective.
It's simple, some people can abort a baby even during it's birth, because they do not consider a human fetus a living, human being, so they can remove it like an unsightly wart.
I have heard people state that until a baby takes their first breath of air, its considered a non-person. Other people have taken it even further, opting to allow newborns to lie unattended, to die in a closet after birth.
It's sort of the same mentality that some people acquire during war, they view their enemy as sub-human, and then feel justified in committing barbaric acts to them. In any other circumstances these actions would be viewed as immoral, unjust, and uncivilized, but not after you classify them as non-human, then, the sky is the limit.
If they are classified as non-humans, you can kill them for convenience sake, experiment upon them, or exploit them as a commodity. It's all about developing the proper perspective.
Developing the proper perspective AND having respect for human life, even if it is inconvenient. However, liberals are not known for respect for the decent or taking responsibility for their actions. Better to blame every/any one else.
Developing the proper perspective AND having respect for human life, even if it is inconvenient. However, liberals are not known for respect for the decent or taking responsibility for their actions. Better to blame every/any one else.
Look at jeffington. he says that he wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore, (depsite being proven wrong over and over again about his use of legal terms) he continues to post his lies as if they are the truth; his opinions as if they are fact.
I'm not a liberal and want YOU or the government to stay out of my decision making when it comes to my body.
Since a fetus can't feel or experience humanity, this is a argument from your own opinions. NOT facts
The problem with people like yourself is, you pretend to define humanity in some narrow sense that seems justified to you. You seem absolutely certain that your definition of humanity is the proper definition, and that anyone with a differing opinion is just wrong, ingorant, uncaring, or some religious radical.
When we really look at the situation, we must first define humanity. What makes someone human and what makes someone a non-human? Do you think all of the "pro-choice" people have the same definition of what human is and what human isn't? Because I know some pro-choice people only want abortions allowed in the first trimester, others will allow them practically right up to the end. Some who think it should only be allowed in certain cases, while others think it should be allowed at any time for any reason.
To pretend that the pro-choice people are some monolithic group who all think alike, isn't exactly the truth. Within the "pro-choice" movement you have quite a spectrum of opinion. So to pretend that there is some absolute rational basis for abortions, or some absolute definition of humanity, is just absurd.
So what is humanity? If a fetus isn't a human, then at what point does it suddenly turn from being a fetus into a person? Is it when its heart starts beating? Is it when it starts to look like a human? Is it when it can live on its own outside the mother? Is it the moment the woman decides she wants to keep the baby? Is it at conception? Is it at some arbitrary date, like three months? Is it once it begins to have a nervous system? Is it when its brain begins to function? Is it when it can start hearing? Is it when it can start dreaming? Is it when it can crawl? When it goes through puberty? When it is full grown? When it can take care of itself? When it can do algebra? When it starts dating? When it gets married? When it has children of its own?
The truth is, a three-month-old baby is no more a human-being than a baby born prematurely, and a baby born prematurely is no more a human-being than a "fetus" in its second-trimester. And a "fetus" at 90 days is no less a human-being than a "fetus" at 91 days. If you start arguing that a human is only a human if it has a certain level of cognitive development, then you could start arguing that many adults aren't actually humans. Especially in regards to certain types of mental retardation, people in a psychosis, or people with severe brain damage or mental developmental conditions. But we would never do that, that is just mean to describe say, a person with down-syndrome to be a "non-human", or someone who is effectively a "vegetable" as no longer being a human. But that is one of the ways you could apply your selective logic.
Anyone with more than two working brain-cells knows that from a purely biological definition, a human is a human from the moment of conception. Just like unborn mice are mice, regardless of the point of gestation. Just like unborn dogs are dogs, regardless of the point of gestation. It is absolutely silly to believe otherwise.
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And that's all that matters, what the LAW says
I totally agree with this statement, because all that really matters is what we currently allow. If the law states a fetus is not a human until live birth, then by law a fetus is not a person. If the law states that a baby is not a person until 5-years old, then by law a baby is not a person until 5 years of age. If the law states a child isn't a person until 18 years of age(or until emancipated), then by law a child is not a person until they are 18 years old.
What you fail to realize is that, laws can be changed at any time, because laws are made by men. If we decided tomorrow that stupid people like yourself were unfit to breed, we could pass a law that requires intelligence lacking people like yourself to get sterilized. Does that make the law "right" or "good", well that depends on your perspective. I personally think it is a wonderful law.
The problem with people like yourself is, you pretend to define humanity in some narrow sense that seems justified to you.
blah blah blah blah
this isn't about humanity. its about the people who think they can have a say over the reproductive rights of a woman. Its about treating women as second class citizens because they happen to be the ones who can get pregnant.
S*** happens. Pregnancy can be one of those things that no one plans for. A woman should be able to decide without the morally deficient, telling her that she is worth nothing.
Abortion is not murder in the eyes of the LAW and that's all that matters. Until the law is changed (it won't any time soon and never will be) nothing you or all the other women haters in this thread will change the FACT that Abortion is legal in this country.
The rest of your diatribe is nothing more than emotional arguments that have nothing to do with the law.
The same choice we have to have abortions are the SAME choices that you have to keep your fetus till you deliver and have a child. That's the nice thing about HAVING A FREAKING CHOICE!
And every single anti-choicer/women hater in this thred have demonstrated over and over again that they place more value over a clump of cells that does nothing for society, than a living breathing child who was abandoned by his/her mother because she simply could not afford to have a child in the first place.
What are you hypocrites doing about the millions of orphaned children, children in foster care that have no family and were the result of women who couldn't get abortions?
For every one of you who decry a woman about having abortion, you better be going down to your nearest adoption agency to adopt 10 children of your own.
Oh wait, you don't care what happens to child after its born.
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