Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Don't get me wrong because we all know that MJ was "off." However, he also had vitaligo and I think the combination of a disfiguring skin condition and the way he was raised, made him hate himself. I don't think it was necessarily that he didn't want to be black or that he hated black people - it just seemed like he didn't want to exist, so he turned himself into a pseudo-white woman.
~ButterBrownBiscuit~
You are entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe the whole vitaligo story.........no more then I believe he fathered 3 white children. That was his media spin as a way to try and explain away his self hatred. After all he had to say something because he knew how bad he looked in the black community......record sales were at stake. He definitely hated himself and in my opinion anything that represented black features (skin color, nose, lips, hair). Notice how each time he chose a surrogate mother to carry children......both of the mothers he chose to carry the children are white. Then he lied and claimed that he used his sperm to fertilize the women.......we all know what mixed children look like..........there is no way those kids are biologically his.........because he did not use his sperm.........he feared that if he used his sperm the babies would come out with black features! Now with all of these beautiful black women running around in the world you mean to tell me he did not find any of them appealing to carry children for him!
The part that you said about turning himself into a pseudo white woman is priceless!
Last edited by NewYorkBorn; 07-22-2009 at 05:26 PM..
A lot of this has to do with being accepted in corporate America. My wife, for example, is a high-powered businesswoman. She wants to wear her hair naturally in braids or locks, but she would never be accepted in her milieu if she were to do that. There are actually corporate policies in some places that prohibit black women from wearing certain natural styles.
I have heard this from black women a lot too........."if I wear my hair natural I will have problems at work or be denied job opportunities" I have a corporate job in a predominately white office. When I started growing the relaxer out of my hair I was wearing small braids for quite a while.........not only was there no problem but my boss and some of my co-workers actually complimented me about the braids and wanted to know more about them. Lets just say for the sake of argument that my experience going natural would have been negative and they would have tried some type of racism. That is where lawsuits come in. I am required to come to work everyday on time, do my job to the best of my ability and make sure that my appearance is neat and professional.......as long as my appearance is neat and professional there is nothing that they can say to me.
If there are corporate policies in some places as you suggest that prohibit us from wearing our hair the way it naturally grows from our head.........then I would love to know the names of those corporations because they need a class action law suit.......things like that just should not be tolerated!
I remember the first time I read the Autobiography of Malcolm X (edited by Alex Haley), many years ago. As a white man, I was stunned by his description of the "conk" process he underwent to straighten his hair.
For the first time, I was afforded an insight into the pain and self-degredation black people routinely underwent to fit the stereotypes of attractiveness in a majoirty caucasian culture. I also got a lesson in perspective on the "racism" of the Nation of Islam and its appeal to men like Malcolm, who in their anger and frsutration were really reacting as any man would who had been demeaned and oppressed by the bigotry of America in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s.
The conversation in this thread brought back memories of that book to me. I still consider it one of the most important books I have ever read. It was painful reading, and it made me squirm as a white person, as it impressed on me what it really meant to be black in the days before the Civil Rights movement.
I wish it were required reading in American schools.
First let me say that I commend you as a white person for taking the time to read about a man like Malcolm X before making a judgement. Many white people don't even bother. The other thing I want to say is that as far as I am concerned the Nation of Islam is not a racist organization..........there is nothing racist about speaking the TRUTH to black people about the issues that affect us. Organizations like the klu klux klan are racist because 1) during history they have gone out and (provoked) been physically violent towards black people 2) their propaganda is based on lies.
Whenever someone is outspoken and just does not care about what other people think about what they are saying.......then they are labeled as a racist. This is subjective........but if a black man or organization is racist..........we learned it from the white man/woman......don't blame the victim. Malcom X was feared because of what he had to say........this is the reason he was killed.........people were afraid that he would bring a consciousness to black people that would make us start thinking.
About the "conk" process..........notice that when Malcom X became enlightened and freed himself of the slave mind he stopped with the conk!
I think your full of crap. I dont see how you think all black people are brainwashed by the "white man" or even have a "slave mind" seriously what happend back in the day was horrible but its over whites dont have slaves anymore and that seems to be all you frikkin talk about its anoyying. Plus your putting down alot of black people by saying what you are. Its dumb as hell. Me as a white women i know a LOT of black people and have a LOT of black friends and i know they dont try to be white. They like who they are and know were they come from. As a black person they know they are beautiful. They have voices and they speak their mind. Just because they want to embrace their beauty and want to straighten or relax or dye their hair doesnt mean crap. Like i asked you before that you never answered me, if you think hair is so amazing and shouldnt be anything but natural then why do you shave? People in Africa dont shave... The white man tell you to do that too? Get over yourself seriously.
I know you're not asking me, but here is my take on what NYB is saying -
She isn't referring to traditional African practices (lip plates, scarification, etc.). She is simply questioning why the overwhelming majority of black women (around 75%) relax their hair and whether there is a social/cultural component. Is it really about having hair that is easier to maintain or is it in an effort to more socially acceptable? I don't personally believe it is about trying to "be white" but that it is a reflection of how we've internalized the attitudes that we think others have about our appearance.
~ButterBrownBiscuit~
I figured I wouldn't get an answer from her (I think she placed me on her ignore because she thinks I'm ignorant) so thanks for answering.
I guess I really never understood the whole slave mentality because IMO it's not based on facts but speculation from researchers, and how do you really research how people felt about a particular subject when all of them are dead?
How do we know that our African ancestors loved their natural "kinky" hair? Maybe they just accepted it but wanted something else, but nothing else was available so they loved what they had.
But then again, what about other beauty regiments that involve chemicals like waxing? Is that considered the slave mentality? Should we all be walking around with "kinky" hair, hair under our armpits, legs, upper lips and bushy eye-brows? Who told us smooth legs were better than hairy legs? Or that women shouldn't have hair under their arms?
Oh well I guess I won't get an answer because I'm done with this thread...I really just cannot have a civil conversation with someone who compares me to a house negro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad
A lot of this has to do with being accepted in corporate America. My wife, for example, is a high-powered businesswoman. She wants to wear her hair naturally in braids or locks, but she would never be accepted in her milieu if she were to do that. There are actually corporate policies in some places that prohibit black women from wearing certain natural styles.
It's similar in my field; there are two sisters from AZ that wear their hair natural. One wears her hair in a bun or an updo but the other wears hers in twists. I've noticed that on more than one occasion the first one gets more jobs that require her to interact with clients while her sister is stuck researching and playing the gopher role.
On a side note we also have a white employee who has the bushiest, curliest hair I've ever seen and she NEVER gets assignments that require her to deal with clients face to face. It's sad that people are so obsessed with looks...
Wow, how did I miss this thread, LOL. Gotta agree with NY regarding corporate america.
Ok natural hair and corporate america. Ok some styles such as a huge fro, may not be considered conservative. Fine, I'll accept that. The problem comes in when the actual texture, meaning the way our hair actually grows out of our heads, is considered not conservative. Believe it or not, natural hair can actually be pulled back into a nice conservative bun. Sure its not going to be smooth, silky and slick. But duh, our hair texture is not smooth, silky and slick. It will puff up. It will get frizzy (unless you use tons of gel, LOL). That's what kinky, afro-textured hair does. So if an issue comes up because of the natural hair texture as opposed to the style, then yes, its time to take a trip to HR.
WOW ok I read through the whole thread and I am amzed about the route it took but I shall reply.
I do not think that relaxing your hair is the slave mentality. I do not think that most women who wear their hair natural are doing so because of africans. I have met several women who go natural and are so pro-black and spend all their time talking about how white people have done this and how you are still mentally a slave but they don't even know basic black history. One had the nerve to say Madam CJ Walker invented the relaxer because she was in love with a white man and thought that her straight hair would make him become attracted to her. So proud of your black heritage but you don't even take any interest in actual facts. It is very sad.
I have been wearing my hair natural since 1990, I have a sensitive scalp and I decided the burning and scabs were not worth it. My partner has relaxed hair and she is much more in tune with discovering our roots than I am. We have been to Africa 3 times and just made our first trip to Haiti in May eyeopening experiences each time if you can afford to go you should especially is you feel you have suffered from brainwashing at the hands of white people. If you think America is so awful remember you are free now no one is forcing you to stay here.
My main issue with black women and natural hair is that some often think that going natural means I don't have to take care of my hair anymore and then they end up looking dirty and unkempt, which then creates negative views on natural hair. Even though I wear my natural hair I still shampoo, condition and clip my ends on a regular basis. I have also encountered black women who do not understand that you can still have variety with natural hair. I usually wear mine in a bun or loose with a headband but when I want more options I use vitamin e oil and a flat ironing on a low setting to straighten it. Once it's straight I can style it the same way as relaxed hair. It just takes a little more time and effort.
One thing I have noticed about African people is that they are much more accepting of each other than black people. Black people seem to feel the need to put others down. In this thread alone I saw a post that said "because your hair is not nappy you don't know the black experience" that's very sad to me. All my life I have been told I'm not black enough to understand this or that and thats a horrible thing to be told especially by those who are supposed to be my people.
It is my opinion that the concept slave mentality was created by black people as a way of saying "you are not as black as I am"
When we arrived in Africa they welcomed us as their American sisters come home. It was beautiful. Black people, especially not black women are generally not accepting of other black people who have different views, beliefs, morals and they attack others without trying to understand their position while insisting that everyone respect their own.
Black people are some of the most intolerant people I have ever encountered.
Let me just say this - telling someone that they have a slave mentality is not really going to result in a positive dialogue or exchange with them. I am absolutely a natural hair advocate, but I also realize that hair is a very sensitive subject with black women. But here's my take on your post -
Researchers have studied indigenous people in isolated areas, whose cultural practices (beauty ideals) have remained the same for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They have studied the impact of exposing them to outside influences/media images. There have also been numerous studies of American women and girls and how the media and other sources impact their self-esteem and opinions about weight, attractiveness, etc. In both instances, exposure to media images negatively impacted the way women and girls felt about their appearance.
As for Africans with kinky hair, here is what struck me about your question - why wouldn't they love their hair and think it was beautiful? We know they groomed and styled their hair, they worked with its natural texture and displayed those styles in their art. To me the question is an example of how we have applied the good hair/bad hair standard onto ourselves.
BTW, I also work in corporate American for very well-know, selective and conservative organization. I have a pretty significant role and can appreciate the need to conservative with my hairstyles. Obviously, a bun would be more appropriate in certain instances than would a big fro. However, even when I straighten my hair, I tend to think it is more appropriate to wear it in a bun than loose.
~ButterBrownBiscuit~
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones
I figured I wouldn't get an answer from her (I think she placed me on her ignore because she thinks I'm ignorant) so thanks for answering.
I guess I really never understood the whole slave mentality because IMO it's not based on facts but speculation from researchers, and how do you really research how people felt about a particular subject when all of them are dead?
How do we know that our African ancestors loved their natural "kinky" hair? Maybe they just accepted it but wanted something else, but nothing else was available so they loved what they had.
But then again, what about other beauty regiments that involve chemicals like waxing? Is that considered the slave mentality? Should we all be walking around with "kinky" hair, hair under our armpits, legs, upper lips and bushy eye-brows? Who told us smooth legs were better than hairy legs? Or that women shouldn't have hair under their arms?
Oh well I guess I won't get an answer because I'm done with this thread...I really just cannot have a civil conversation with someone who compares me to a house negro.
It's similar in my field; there are two sisters from AZ that wear their hair natural. One wears her hair in a bun or an updo but the other wears hers in twists. I've noticed that on more than one occasion the first one gets more jobs that require her to interact with clients while her sister is stuck researching and playing the gopher role.
On a side note we also have a white employee who has the bushiest, curliest hair I've ever seen and she NEVER gets assignments that require her to deal with clients face to face. It's sad that people are so obsessed with looks...
I am black, however I am light skinned with freckles, and I shave my head. So I'm just black enough for the black folks, but just non-threatening enough for the white folks. =P
I just want to say that, as a white woman, I used to think I had hair issues, but I had no idea what black women go through. I'm sorry! I didn't know about all of the socio-political implications tied to how you wear your hair.
For the record, I'm 47 and I let the color grow out on my hair and cut it super short and now I'm sort of salt and pepper--a la Jamie Lee Curtis. But I saw one of those celebrity pics of Jamie Lee followed by lots of comments like "Hello! Hair color!" and "She looks so OLD!" So, really, no one wants us to look like we really look like without lots of chemicals and time-consuming techniques.
Can't we all just wear our hair the way we want to and say "Eff off" to anyone who doesn't like it?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Who told us smooth legs were better than hairy legs? Or that women shouldn't have hair under their arms? 
