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View Poll Results: should american citizens be allowed a referendum vote on this health care bill?
yes, they should-let the people decide 50 59.52%
no, they should not-let government decide 32 38.10%
don't know / don't care either way 2 2.38%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-12-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,835 posts, read 8,458,705 times
Reputation: 8564

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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post

you can't honestly believe that is solely why obama won the election. if you are so confident that this is the reason, then you would not mind a referendum vote?
Of course it wasn't solely why he won the election, but it was a huge part of the overall package -- he made that quite clear, and voters knew that going into that booth on November 4, 2008.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,176 posts, read 26,275,743 times
Reputation: 27919
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
And why do you think that happens?
Why?
To avoid the possiblity of not being 100% perfect and being sued for it.

I know this won't cut any ice with most people here since it is totally unofficial and unsupported but...... I had a long chat with a XRay technician yesterday.
I asked her for her 'guesstimate' on how many C Scans she takes might be due to this.
I was even surprised to have her answer 90%
She has had conversations with many doctors who are frustrated with the need to do it .
Take it for what it's worth.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:16 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,945,576 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
History of Congressional Pay Raises:

1994: None
1995: None
1996: None
1997: None
1998: 2.3%
1999: None
2000: 3.4%
2001: 2.7%
2002: 3.4%
2003: 3.1%
2004: 2.3%
2005: 2.5%
2006: 1.9%
2007: None
2008: 2.5%
2009: None
they get automatic cost of living raises.
The current base pay for members of Congress, in the House or Senate, is $174,000 a year. That doesn't count a generous benefits package that includes a pension, health insurance, an expense allowance and, of course, Capitol Hill offices and a staff paid for by the taxpayers.

Elected officials should have to approve their pay increases, but in 1989 members of Congress decided they'd authorize annual pay increases unless they vote against it.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:17 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,977,372 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot14 View Post
Yes for once in our lives actually let us decide what we want instead of corrupt politicians making the choice for us.
We do not need pure democracy methods. People have all the power, they simply vote those out who do not attend to the constitutional protections as it concerns the best interest of the people.

The call for this makes no sense whatsoever.

Look, if people are easily manipulated and keep voting in the same corrupt politicians over and over, then how is it that people voting as a nation will be any better? This opens up doors for massive manipulation, oppressive majorities, and agendas driven by the self interest of an ignorant populace.

We go to pure democracy, and this country will cease to exist as we know it. It will devolve into chaos and oppression. People should be scared to death of this type of implementation. It has a history of consistent failure and abuse.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:24 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,945,576 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
We do not need pure democracy methods. People have all the power, they simply vote those out who do not attend to the constitutional protections as it concerns the best interest of the people.

The call for this makes no sense whatsoever.

Look, if people are easily manipulated and keep voting in the same corrupt politicians over and over, then how is it that people voting as a nation will be any better? This opens up doors for massive manipulation, oppressive majorities, and agendas driven by the self interest of an ignorant populace.

We go to pure democracy, and this country will cease to exist as we know it. It will devolve into chaos and oppression. People should be scared to death of this type of implementation. It has a history of consistent failure and abuse.
i am tired of hearing the population called ignorant. i don't believe it! i believe that americans hope for the best, but are usually disappointed because candidates LIE.
i am sure that if americans had any say in the matter, they would not have let our country outsource all the jobs and let a foreign banking entity, the federal reserve, manipulate the money supply to the detriment of the american citizen.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:24 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,524,953 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Every time this gets mentioned it ignores the excess referrels to specialists and extraneous CYA testing.
That's because those more properly belong in a discusssion of the over-consumption of health care under a system that has more incentives for quantity than it does for quality.

As should be quite obvious, legitimate professional concerns over being sued for malpractice for not running a test or making a referral are quite legitimate drivers for such testing and referral. After all, they reflect fears of being found to have provided less than the minimally acceptable standard of care. This "excess" that you cite must have other origins by definition, regardless of what various practioner's may choose to self-report.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:26 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,958,708 times
Reputation: 14345
I voted no, but not because I don't think people should have a lot of say over this bill or the various versions of it. The people who vote for or against this bill should read the bill and have more than a tenuous grasp of its provisions. It is a complicated, lengthy piece of legislation that will affect most Americans. But most Americans don't even read state referendums thoroughly. Most Americans won't take the time to read this bill, and even if they do, they'll read it with whatever bias they're bringing to the table. And that includes myself.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,880,514 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Why?
To avoid the possiblity of not being 100% perfect and being sued for it.
I know this won't cut any ice with most people here since it is totally unofficial and unsupported but...... I had a long chat with a XRay technician yesterday.
I asked her for her 'guesstimate' on how many C Scans she takes might be due to this.
I was even surprised to have her answer 90%
She has had conversations with many doctors who are frustrated with the need to do it .
Take it for what it's worth.
Here's the President's take on the issue, as it appeared on New England Journal of Medicine, complete with references to studies:

"To improve both patient safety and the medical liability climate, the tort system must achieve four goals: reduce the rates of preventable patient injuries, promote open communication between physicians and patients, ensure patients access to fair compensation for legitimate medical injuries, and reduce liability insurance premiums for health care providers. Addressing just one of these issues is not sufficient. Capping malpractice payments may ameliorate rising premium rates, but it would do nothing to prevent unsafe practices or ensure the provision of fair compensation to patients."

It is great to have a person leading this country, who can see a problem having potentially many issues, not just one or two. Leave that for those suffering with tunnel vision.

Also read this: The Medical Malpractice Myth, before we go anywhere with this discussion.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,176 posts, read 26,275,743 times
Reputation: 27919
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
That's because those more properly belong in a discusssion of the over-consumption of health care under a system that has more incentives for quantity than it does for quality.

As should be quite obvious, legitimate professional concerns over being sued for malpractice for not running a test or making a referral are quite legitimate drivers for such testing and referral. After all, they reflect fears of being found to have provided less than the minimally acceptable standard of care. This "excess" that you cite must have other origins by definition, regardless of what various practioner's may choose to self-report.
After having discussed this with physicians from long before it was a problem, up through the years as it escalated, I must disagree with you.
This will have to be an agree to disagree situation since I doubt your mind will be changed.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:29 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,945,576 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
That's because those more properly belong in a discusssion of the over-consumption of health care under a system that has more incentives for quantity than it does for quality.

As should be quite obvious, legitimate professional concerns over being sued for malpractice for not running a test or making a referral are quite legitimate drivers for such testing and referral. After all, they reflect fears of being found to have provided less than the minimally acceptable standard of care. This "excess" that you cite must have other origins by definition, regardless of what various practioner's may choose to self-report.
how convenient to make doctors the "bad guys", doing all these extra tests simply to boost their income, rather than to protect themselves from lawyers looking to make a buck off of somebody with deep pockets.

i bet if you put it to a poll, americans trust the judgement of the doctors over the judgement of the lawyers. could this country survive better without doctors or lawyers?
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