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If liberals didn't hate everyone then they would have to actually look at the root causes of their own misery.What liberals really hate are their own lives.
Because they rely on people other than themselves for their own happiness and fulfillment they will always be disappointed.
Everyone does it.It's just like when you lose something and you know its your fault but you still want to yell at someone to make yourself feel better.Simple as that.
Do not dwell on why the left behaves this way, as you will just drive yourself insane.Instead we must concentrate on their total defeat in the arena of ideas.Don't let emotional chicanery draw your attention in the wrong direction.Every day another feel good B.S. pillar of leftist ideology crumbles under critical examination in places just like this all over the world.The internet has only been widely available for ten years or so.If you thought the printing press was a threat to tyranny give the internet another ten years and see what happens.
Yes you are correct liberals, all of them, really hate themselves and that is why they stand up for what they believe
How exactly do they rely on other people for their happiness?? Do you have any real depth to this stance or just your off base personal rant?
Whats your issue do you not like the concept of postive things happening? Acceptance, peace, prosperity? Would you rather solve all the issues in the world with a sword and gun?
The reality is the internet, for now, is the only place you can find a glimpse of truth when it comes to news and politics etc. The right wing owns 90% of all media outlets in this country and therefore control what we hear, see, and read.
If you fall into the trap of income envy (propagated by MSM), you have taken the bait of the vice of envy in your fight against greed.
So you have no problems with ceo's making 2 billion a year while they run companies that take away american jobs and fail to provide services to the american public?
Why do so called "tolerant" liberals hate so many different people?
They hate people who work
They hate people who are religious
They hate minorites (except criminal minorities)
They hate people from the South and Midwest
They hate traditional families
They hate white people
They hate everyone with an inkling of a differing opinion on any issue
They hate babies (pro abortion)
So what are the reasons for such hatred by this group that identifies itself as caring about others and love and peace?
This statement is ridiculous. It's the Republicans who hate everyone, especially Obama. They want to see him fail and don't care if it ruins our country. The HATE factor belongs to the Republicans and the Libertarians. Just listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, et al, and you'll hear hate galore pounded out overthe airwaves!
I haven't read much of this thread so if some of what I'm about to say has been said, I apologize. However, as a liberal I do what to clarify a bit in regards to this statement. Of course, in the spirit of emphasizing the fact that generalizing about liberals (or conservatives) is overly reductionist and simplistic, I want to stress that these are my own views and other liberals may, and most certainly do, feel quite differently.
Quite succinctly put. I especially liked the "generalizing about" statement!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
I have no problem with people who have worked hard and gotten an education making a good income. I myself hope that the considerable amount of time I've spent getting an education allows me to earn a good wage one day (though my enormous debt resulting from student loans won't help...).
That's called equal opportunity- you've taken advantage of what is offered, paid your way and hope to succeed. May you enjoy total success in reaching your goals.
Do you feel you would have been better served if it had been free?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
What I do have a problem with is a system in which some people who work just as hard as anyone else get paid considerably less than others. I have moral issues with a system in which people who are doing things that cause a net harm to society may be getting paid 6-figure incomes while someone who works long-hours as a teacher in an impoverished school district or who works 60 hour weeks at a diner to take care of their kids barely make enough to make ends meet.
While I totally agree with the basic sentiment, I have to say that's all it is- sentiment. Folks get paid only partially based on the perceived value of their services, of greater importance in business is the cost to replace the service; How much do I have to pay someone else to do the same work. Not especially fair to those with skill sets easily learned or widely held but that is how the system works. IMO This is an area of major disagreement between conservatives and liberals; C- It's your company/your choice as long as your not doing anything illegal; L- It's totally unfair and we must mandate the amount of pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
It bothers me that someone can become filthy rich from, for example, making advertisements for ethically-challenged corporations while people are homeless and starving. It bothers me that CEOs of major corporations that have helped bring down our economy are literally making tens of millions of dollars.
Agreed- the bailouts were a major mistake and those taking bailout money should be fired. Those not taking bailout funds-see above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
Those CEOs aren't working hard enough in relation to the single mother of three at the local diner to justify their over-inflated salaries.
Can't really disagree about the 'fairness' aspect but waitresses are easy to hire or train. That said, a really good one can make $60k a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
Paris Hilton certainly hasn't worked hard enough to earn the life of luxury she has, your local homeless Vietnam vet certainly hasn't done anything to justify his poverty.
Again I agree about PH- what a loss! But it is her money to waste as she chooses. I can't agree with the "local homeless Vietnam vet" part, poor choices are the major problem. There are too many vets who came home and made good choices for this to be an accurate assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
The problem is that wages are not accorded to people based on how hard they work, wages are not allocated according to how much someone benefits society. There are people who work incredibly hard every day without ever managing to 'catch up.' Unfortunately, one's life opportunities, one's 'starting circumstances' can heavily stack the deck in or against their favor. Despite the rhetoric, ours is not a strictly-merit based society. A person who grows up in dire poverty, with a single parent, living in the projects surrounded by crime is going to have a LOT harder time doing something good with their life than is a person who grows up to a nice two-parent middle class family in the suburbs. It's not fair and I think it's morally problematic at best.
It's not about 'fair', it's about ability and dedication. It's exceedingly difficult to succeed on your own merits but that's what it takes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
If we lived in a society where everyone actually did have equal opportunities I'd be more comfortable with the state of things. If we lived in a society where people were paid strictly according to how beneficial their work was to society and how hard they worked I'd be more comfortable. Unfortunately we don't.
With the exception of the disabled or mentally incompetent we do in fact live in an equal opportunity society. If you make poor choices at the start it is almost impossible to recover. Marry young, don't get an education, become a habitual criminal or drug user and you lose. Make the right choices and you can win.
Why do so called "tolerant" liberals hate so many different people?
1) They hate people who work
2) They hate people who are religious
3) They hate minorities (except criminal minorities)
4) They hate people from the South and Midwest
5) They hate traditional families
6) They hate white people
7) They hate everyone with an inkling of a differing opinion on any issue
8) They hate babies (pro abortion)
So what are the reasons for such hatred by this group that identifies itself as caring about others and love and peace?
I can't believe another human being would start a discussion like this. But let's get to it, shall we?...
1) Liberals prefer a better distribution of wealth (the method, however, needs adjustment).
2) Liberals don't like religion being used to determine another person's value.
3) Liberals typically belong to some minority and therefore can empathize with all types, including those others regard as "less than".
4) Unsupported statement.
5) Liberals wisely realize that a traditional family structure cannot be templated on all members of society.
6) See 4 above.
7) Liberals have little patience or tolerance for, um, impatience and intolerance.
8) Liberals prefer that a woman retain power over her pregnancy without intrusion.
The only hate I see comes from, as it always seems to, the right side of the ideological divide. They come up with silly statements about hatred that really project a passive/aggressive attitude towards others. Their black and white, my-way-or-the-highway "solutions" and opinions offer nothing but further division of a glorious country. Conservatives will always be angry people because they are fighting a lost cause: inevitable change. If they really had their country's best interests at heart, they'd learn the art of compromise and accept the fact that "conserving" is a foolish counterproductive pursuit. But then, if they did that, they would cease being conservatives. It is a philosophy that will always be at odds with the world around it. Pity, because while some of their views hold tremendous weight and value, their arrogant and uncompromising methods undermine whatever beneficial results could manifest.
Did you ever think that the recruiters were not welcome because they recruit young people to go and die in unjust wars by making false promises and harassing people? They give you all this bull about how they will help you and you won't be in danger, this isn't viet nam. It's all lies and then they send you to die and could care less about you. The military is disproportionately filled with low income members of this country because of the false promises. They harass and harass and won't stop even when asked to stop. I remember when I turned 18 getting 3 calls a day for months and months no matter how many times I told them in uncertain terms I was not interested.
Please, you're breaking my heart with your pain!
If you had actually served you might have a clue as to what you're talking about- try talking to some of the proud Sailors/Soldiers/Marines that have to get a clue about how it actually feels.
If "many times I told them in uncertain terms" perhaps it would have been better to be more certain about it.
Did you ever think that the recruiters were not welcome because they recruit young people to go and die in unjust wars by making false promises and harassing people? They give you all this bull about how they will help you and you won't be in danger, this isn't viet nam. It's all lies and then they send you to die and could care less about you. The military is disproportionately filled with low income members of this country because of the false promises. They harass and harass and won't stop even when asked to stop. I remember when I turned 18 getting 3 calls a day for months and months no matter how many times I told them in uncertain terms I was not interested.
Anothe "free rider" tells us how he was brutally harrassed by da big bad ole miwitawy. How awful they called him and asked him to serve his country. Bad..bad ole miwitawy.
Quite succinctly put. I especially liked the "generalizing about" statement!
That's called equal opportunity- you've taken advantage of what is offered, paid your way and hope to succeed. May you enjoy total success in reaching your goals.
Do you feel you would have been better served if it had been free?
While I totally agree with the basic sentiment, I have to say that's all it is- sentiment. Folks get paid only partially based on the perceived value of their services, of greater importance in business is the cost to replace the service; How much do I have to pay someone else to do the same work. Not especially fair to those with skill sets easily learned or widely held but that is how the system works. IMO This is an area of major disagreement between conservatives and liberals; C- It's your company/your choice as long as your not doing anything illegal; L- It's totally unfair and we must mandate the amount of pay.
Agreed- the bailouts were a major mistake and those taking bailout money should be fired. Those not taking bailout funds-see above.
Can't really disagree about the 'fairness' aspect but waitresses are easy to hire or train. That said, a really good one can make $60k a year.
Again I agree about PH- what a loss! But it is her money to waste as she chooses. I can't agree with the "local homeless Vietnam vet" part, poor choices are the major problem. There are too many vets who came home and made good choices for this to be an accurate assessment.
It's not about 'fair', it's about ability and dedication. It's exceedingly difficult to succeed on your own merits but that's what it takes.
With the exception of the disabled or mentally incompetent we do in fact live in an equal opportunity society. If you make poor choices at the start it is almost impossible to recover. Marry young, don't get an education, become a habitual criminal or drug user and you lose. Make the right choices and you can win.
Dano
It's refreshing to debate with someone of a more moderate/conservative persuasion who is open minded and can understand the merits of more liberal views even if they don't agree! You make valid points and I think you did a good job of pointing out where at least one of the major cleavages between our viewpoints is. The thing is, both sides have compelling and valid arguments to make. I understand how the system works and that is exactly my point; the system as it stands isn't exactly fair and if we can find ways to change it, even incrementally, then we should do so. I, for example, would love to see a cap on income; I simply don't believe anyone, no matter how hard working and brilliant, deserves to make more than, say, two million dollars a year; CEOs are grossly overpaid and often for doing things that harm society.
I will say that I do know the value of hard work; I often get the feeling that people of a more conservative persuasion think that liberals such as myself are generally lazy. That's certainly not the case for me; I came from a poor background and have worked extremely hard to get where I am (I'm a doctoral student and serve as a TA). Unfortunately, to get where I am today I had to fight and claw and take on an enormous amount of debt that will take me decades to pay off; it does bother me that I had to take out so much debt to get my education while there are other students who get to go to school without taking on debt because they come from more privileged backgrounds. I don't believe that's right.
The one thing I will outright disagree with you on is your final statement: we most certainly do not live in an equal opportunity society. There are plenty of reasons for this; one obvious one is the unequal distribution of and access to quality education. Children fortunate enough to live in a 'good' school district or to have parents wealthy and considerate enough to send them to a good private school have more and better opportunities than those who don't. Related, and perhaps even more importantly, vast inequality in the distribution of 'starting conditions' heavily stack the deck in favor of some and against others. As I've said before, a kid born to a single impoverished mother of several children, living in the projects, surrounded by drugs and crime is going to have to work 50 times harder to get anywhere (let alone to college and beyond) than a child with exactly the same intellectual capacity born to an upper-middle income nuclear family in the suburbs. Now, that doesn't mean that the child born into dire poverty can't make it, but he most certainly doesn't have an equal opportunity to make it. He (or she) would have to work far, far harder. This is precisely why so many born into poverty stay in poverty; the lack of access to the same opportunities had by the more fortunate acts as a very tough barrier to success.
Please, you're breaking my heart with your pain!
If you had actually served you might have a clue as to what you're talking about- try talking to some of the proud Sailors/Soldiers/Marines that have to get a clue about how it actually feels.
If "many times I told them in uncertain terms" perhaps it would have been better to be more certain about it.
Dano
Look I respect every single person who serves this country. My father did 2 tours in viet-nam and will neve be the same as result. That does not in anyway mean people who do not "serve" this country in a militaristic aspect are any less american than those who do. The reality is that the current military only exists because it preys on young, uninformed, low income members of our country for the most part. They are promised money, college, and benefits for the rest of their lives. Why is it then that a greatly disproportionate number of homeless people are veterans of this countries armed services? Because they are so well taken care of????
I know countless people who have and are serving and let me tell you most of them don't agree one bit with what we are doing in Iraq. Again I have nothing but respect but I get so tired of people trying to say they are somehow more american because they picked up a gun. The reality is if the draft was reinstituted we would have never been involved in that war because people would have been rioting in the streets. The "volunteer" military is made up of a large number of people who feel they have no other option. Not very volunteer like is it.
Anothe "free rider" tells us how he was brutally harrassed by da big bad ole miwitawy. How awful they called him and asked him to serve his country. Bad..bad ole miwitawy.
Why dont you get a clue and realize being american is not only about picking up a gun. The military is not the only way to serve our country and who the hell are you to call me a free rider?? You and all the other people who think that being american is all about being in the military need to wake up. The military industrial complex in this country is out of hand and what does it do? It sends our citizens off to die in unjust wars so elite people who would never send their kid to war can bank on the financial gains of war.
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Ridiculous!
