Why does Austin Suicide Flyer get a pass? (radical, support, administration)

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

The FBI has a definition of terrorist. They try to change or influence change via their actions. This guy was just seeking personal revenge. He wasn't out to change the IRS..just get back at them for his personal problems.
That's not a terrorist.

Exactly. Coercion is a fundamental part of how we define terrorists. If an act lacks coercive elements, it cannot be defined as terrorism.

[Chatteress]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Why isn't he referred to as a domestic terrorist. His intentions were clear. He was trying to kill IRS employees in his attempt to bombard an IRS building. I thought only Muslims commit acts of terrorism but I guess he doesn't count because he is White, non-Muslim and only targeted the IRS. That's not terrorism right? He isn't a suicide bomber because he didn't use bombs...just a plane right? It doesn't matter if he took out half the side of the building right? Yeah, he is not a suicide bomber. He is just an angry person from Texas.

This conservative does not give this dude a pass. He definitely fits the definition of a terroist. Regardless of what you think of the IRS, killing innocent employees is never the answer. I once worked in a call center of a governmental office where 70% of the incoming calls were irate citizens so I can understand what average IRS employees must go through in dealing with the public. I can't stand the IRS but would never wish harm on anyone that works for that agency as they are only trying to earn a living like the rest of us.

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Did the Luby's killer have a grudge against cafeteria chains? Did he type a 6 page essay specifically detailing his dislike toward cafeteria chains? Did he make this essay available for everyone to read after he committed his acts stating he was going to send a message to cafeteria chains?

The difference is Hasan like Stack were both motivated by a specific ideology and saw their victims as a threat that had to be hurt in some manner. Their acts were not random.

You would have a point if this guy just randomly ran his car into a McDonalds killing people because his wife left him the day before. Stack clearly spent years forming these ideas. Have you had a chance to read his essay? It's truly disturbing but it also shows you this guy has felt this way for a long time. This is a not person who suffered from a bout of depression and just went off. Here is the link again, I think you will change your mind after you read it. There is a link to a PDF in the article

Remains of 2 found after Austin plane crash - CNN.com

Does every mentally ill murderer kill and behave in the exact same way?NO.What makes you think that suffering from a bout of depression is the same thing as being seriously mentally ill? Have you ever taken a look at the DSM?

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

You have made numerous posts supporting this guy's actions, yet you never thought of the victims. Please show me a post on this thread where you're had any compassion for the victims.
You seem to be having no problem defining those of middle-eastern extraction as terrorists, while homegrown, not so much.
That seems to be a good definition, and your hero seems to fit that description. He was sending a message to the IRS, as his death screed attests.
He murdered multiple people and left a screed stating why.
It's pretty straight-forward and simple.
I'm mad at the government, I don't like you, I'll make my point against the government and kill some innocent people, destroy their families, cost the taxpayers a lot of money fixing the building and make my stand against the government.

Since WHEN does stating that someone is seriously mentally ill equal SUPPORT for their actions? What the hell do you mean by my "hero"? Exactly where did you get the outrageous idea that the Texas guy is my hero? OMG! Getting a little extreme there, aren't you? I do NOT SUPPORT MURDER or KILLING by anyone for any reason. I am totally anti-VIOLENCE. Btw, I certainly saw Timothy McVeigh as a terrorist. Why do you think I'm a bigot? You think the Texas guy violently splattered himself into that building and killed others to send a message to the IRS. I think he VIOLENTLY splattered himself and his plane into that building to KILL HIMSELF in a very long fit of rage, after years of rage, to draw attention to HIMSELF! I don't think he did that to make a political statement. I think he just backed himself into a corner through years of very SICK THINKING and eventually he clearly decided he had no other options than to KILL HIMSELF and make a big splash while doing it. Some people who are enraged for years and mentally ill choose to kill other SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS in their lives in order to express their rage when they finally reach the point of suicide......it's a situation of "I'm going to kill myself, and I'm going to take so-and-so with me....I'll show them"! SICK, SICK, SICK. Compassion for the victims? You have no clue whatsoever how I feel about the victims who were caught up in this man's actions because of his clearly derranged and deluded mind! I feel compassion for all the victims of violent crimes, for the families of murder victims, enormous compassion. At the very same time, I am totally against the death penalty. Nurturing hatred and anger after a violent event does nothing whatsoever for any of the victims, other than cause even more pain. Quietly listening to whatever the living victims want to say, and letting them grieve with support, and helping them ultimately find some peace would be compassionate; NOT ranting on and on about the killer and nurturing the growth of hatred within those victims

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

He clearly states his "political goal" in his essay He said the IRS is a corrupt agency that selectively taxes certain individuals and that it cost him a significant portion of his life. His act was done to send a message both physically and to get people to read his manifesto as he knew this incident would attract attention and publicize his writing. The political change he was seeking was to get people to view the IRS as he did.

And EXACTLY what is it about writing an essay that proves someone is mentally stable and sane? He was furious at the IRS. He could have been furious at anything. Do you think this man would have been furious at a person if he thought that an individual person had cheated him out of his business in a crooked business deal? My guess would be YES, he would have been. I don't believe for one nano second that that guy killed himself in order to get people to READ his so-called "manifesto." I believe he killed himself because he wanted to kill himself because he was so twisted in his thinking that he believed that his "image" and his "possessions" defined who he was and he could not cope with the loss. And it wouldn't have mattered who or what caused such a loss for someone who was thinking the way he was thinking. He was MENTALLY ILL and his thought processes were so derranged and deluded that clearly he saw suicide as the only way out. He may have wanted to be "remembered" but IMO he certainly did not kill himself to try to achieve political change; he killed himself because he WANTED TO KILL HIMSELF and take others with him. He wanted to DIE. He didn't want to live life viewing himself as such a failure and had to blame that failure on someone or something else. That is SICK, SICK, SICK.

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

If his purpose was to simply get back at the IRS, he wouldn't have typed a 6 page manifesto and deliberately made it available so that it would be read after he committed his act. He wanted the public to know his thoughts with the intent of changing the public perception of the IRS. The IRS is a major political and social entity in this country since it affects taxation, an issue that countries have gone to war over, an issue that helped form this country. He also used a dramatic piece like a plane crash to send his message instead of simply shooting some IRS employees. All of this indicates this was an act of domestic terrorism

Have you ever worked with or had any significant contact with mentally ill people? You seem to think the fact that he wrote 6 pages of rants against the IRS that that ALONE meant the man was perfectly sane and rational and logical! Geeeeezzzzzz. People do write suicide notes/letters. That's not unusual. Mentally ill can write suicide notes/letters. It certainly seems that you are making enormous efforts to link that man to the Tea Party and far right lunatic fringe people. Hey, I'm a totally anti-violence, anti-killing liberal. And, IMO, this very mentally unstable man may have been emboldened and influenced by the likes of Beck or Hannity or Rush.......however, his so-called manifesto and his behavior seemed to be that of an enormously mentally unstable and sick man, first and foremost.

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

He discounts any reasons put forth by Stack because he is convinced he is insane. Yet, Clockworking can't accept the idea that a Muslim terrorist might also be insane and his religous reasons for killing might in fact be based on reasons of insanity. It just shows they are choosing to view these incidents differently and apply different standards.

Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said it was impossible for a Muslim terrorist to be insane. I simply said that the 9/11 terrorists were not insane. There have been many investigations into the lives of the 9/11 terrorists since that date, and I have yet to read anything that indicated that any of those men were mentally unstable. If you have some links that do suggest or have information that show that those terrorists were behaving in a mentally unstable manner PRIOR to 9/11, please, by all means, direct me to that information, post some links. I would like to point out that the men who carried out the long term plans for 9/11 were not the ONLY Muslims in the world, nor were they the only terrorists in the world. Of course Muslims, just like all other peoples in the world, are definitely susceptible to becoming mentally ill. Maybe you would like to explore the DSM and learn a little more about mental illness. That would most likely help you to understand these things a little better.

[Clockworking]

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas

This is an interesting line of reasoning ... attributing media reports or lack thereof as being proof of anything, rather than draw a personal, reasonable conclusion based on the matter at hand.

The guy obviously lost it. He wanted revenge for what he viewed as persecution (which may be true, but is not the normal or reasonable response to such). He contemplated it, carefully planned his actions with a particular outcome in mind, and executed his plan. So that shows that he was at least in charge of his faculties enough to take the actions he took. But, the act itself is so extreme and abnormal, no one of sound mind would do such a thing. His actions alone demonstrates a psychological breakdown.

Similarly, there are many examples of very disturbed individuals ... serial killers that are charming and disarming, while committing unimaginable violence in a methodical, well thought out manner. Although they may not present the "classic" image of a lunatic ... their actions sure do.

Sometimes we just over think things ... the guy went off the deep end, and his actions clearly show an extremely disturbed mind.

What is truly unfortunate, other than the victims, obviously, is that he will be used as a poster child to label anyone who believes in the constitution, or criticizes the IRS as being a potential terrorist, which is why that label should be avoided here.

It's now obvious that the authorities were monitoring this guy (though many may not be aware of this) ... the FBI had dispatched agents from the Dallas field office the day before this event, and were on location the moment the event took place.

Great post. I totally agree.

[sponger42]

I think this is a clear-cut case of domestic terrorism. The manifesto and target building clearly indicate this was not a random act, but rather violence perpetrated in the hope of making a political statement and change. It is clearly stated in the manifesto that the terrorist Mr. Stack hopes this will spark a revolution against the government.

Originally Posted by Clockworking

IMO, this very mentally unstable man may have been emboldened and influenced by the likes of Beck or Hannity or Rush.......however, his so-called manifesto and his behavior seemed to be that of an enormously mentally unstable and sick man, first and foremost.

I don't see the difference between Madrassas or radical clerics "influencing" suicide bombers to attack US bases, interests, or allies and Hannity/Limbaugh "influencing" domestic terrorists like this man to make suicide attacks against the government. Religious schools and Islamist clerics are not terrorists, they simply express the some of the same opinions as terrorists. Hannity/Limbaugh or the radical right are not terrorists just because they express opinions similiar to this terrorist.

What is truly unfortunate, other than the victims, obviously, is that he will be used as a poster child to label anyone who believes in the constitution, or criticizes the IRS as being a potential terrorist, which is why that label should be avoided here.

I think this is clearly an act of terrorism. Labeling it as such will NOT mean that CRITICIZING the government will be considered terrorism, but rather it will mean that anyone who includes a political statement in an act of violence can be considered a terrorist.

Criticizing government policy in the middle east after 9/11 does NOT equate to terrorism, neither will criticizing the IRS after this act of domestic terrorism. Being part of a militia after the McVeigh bombing did not equate to terrorism. If Tea Party members say they understand the reasons behind this act of terrorism, it does not mean that the Tea Party movement supports terrorism.

I do not see any convincing arguments as to why this should not be referred to as an act of terrorism. I have to wonder, had it been a Muslim or man of arab descent would those who argue against labeling it an act of terrorism stick to their guns?

[Archan]

Originally Posted by wehotex

How do you know that his intention was to kill IRS employees? In his state of mind, he probably intended more to make a statement about the injustice of the IRS. Can't Americans sympathize with him even a little because we agree that american life can be very stressful on a man, espec when he has been harassed by the IRS. The muslims did it b/c of their religious belief and knew what they were doing intentionally. The austin guy was just tired of life, knew he wanted to end it all and go out with a bang. I feel sorry for the guy, but at least he fulfilled his last wish.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, you should feel sorry for the 2 people he killed and their families. A lot of people have tough times. They don't have to turn violent.