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Private charity does a better job at the stuff you are talking about than government. And cheaper too. And they don't care what race or gender one is before getting assitance.
Not really a history major, are you. The welfare system and the social safety net were born from the abject and total failure of private charity to be able to cope with the magnitude of our social problems and issues. Go talk with professionals today within the private charity system and ask them whether they feel the government would better withdraw from its relief and assistance efforts or whether they would in fact see a need for more federal programs and resources if our problems are to be adequately addressed. See how many tell you that they get down on their knees and pray each night for expanded government involvement.
"The Nebraska legislature is getting ready for its second vote on a measure that would ban abortion after 20 weeks gestation on the basis of fetal pain. If passed and signed into law, the legislation could pose a direct challenge to the 1973 Roe v. Wade case, because it applies a different standard for restricting abortion than the one used by the Supreme Court."
"The “Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act” (LB 1103 (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/FloorDocs/Current/PDF/AM/AM2063.pdf - broken link)), authored by Speaker Mike Flood, has already won its first round of approval in the Unicameral, Nebraska’s legislative body, by a vote of 38 - 5. A second reading on the bill is expected to take place soon as there are only six days remaining before the legislature concludes its work for the 2010 legislative year. "
Ah...your "prolife" colors are showing. The people on the "prolife" side are full of nothing but lies, trash and scumbags who couldnt give a crap when you are finally born.
And yeah. If I believed in god, I would be thanking my mom a lot.
Hey people that don't wanna give other people a chance to live or have a life shouldn't be here because that is the way they value new life....it's the golden rule..do unto others
You're the one that thinks she knows everything about everything.
You look it up if you don't believe me. I'm not a member of your research team.
No, I don't know everything about everything, or I wouldn't have asked. Again, got stats? You made the assertion, it's on you to back it up if you expect anyone to believe it.
Physiologically, a fetus would be in a less aware state than patients at the other end of the spectrum whom we routinely disconnect from life support services on the grounds that they are in a persistent vegatative state. Even in very late term, fetuses are beyond the levels of a very deep coma.
You know, I was wondering about this (the consciousness, at least the intellectual consciousness, of a fetus v. that of an adult in a coma) but it's definitely NOT my area of expertise or even past interest so I didn't want to say anything. I could easily have been wrong. But it seems like there's some support for this, then? This is interesting.
I was going to bring up when my mother was in a coma (cerebral aneurysm) but I'm shaky on these details...it was such a shock at the time...she was only 52. But...the doctor's explanation (as I vaguely recall from a haze) was that according to her EEGs (several), the brain waves or the section of the brain (???) that related to being able to experience/understand pain were just gone (or not operative at all), but she had some reflexes left.
Hard subject to bring up because of how sad it all was but is this what you're talking about? Here's the thing. AFAIK, science HAS shown, over and over again, that one's intellectual and emotional experience of pain is a huge percentage of what ends up being felt (hence, the idea of relaxation/focusing during labor to decrease the pain, as one example). If so, a fetus, with zero knowledge of what is going on, in addition to the fact that it is only halfway toward birth as it is and there is a myriad of ways in which it isn't developed enough for life outside the womb yet, couldn't possibly be having the same experience.
Not that any of this is either here or there (ugh, grammar, sorry), and I certainly wouldn't want any tiny being to feel pain...but if this distinction is being made and it's attempting to go into actual law, there really MUST be solid evidence behind it...right?
Thanks for any help and again...I don't enjoy the idea of such an "old" fetus (so developed) being aborted except for medical reasons, myself, but of course it's a tiny, tiny percentage that is aborted at this stage anyway, so obviously the rest of the world...even us crazy pro-choicers!...must feel the same way. I'm sure it's a very hard decision. But...because this is the law we're talking about here...it really is on Nebraska to prove this stuff rather than just being emotional about it. And I just don't think the science is there.
BTW, to all the proponents out there, I still don't see any of those peer-reviewed studies you're talking about. Hmmm.
Okay. Just re-read this with your edits and I have to say, I highly doubt you're a doctor or a scientist in this field. There is just too much error in what you say. And there's way too much glazing over facts with overemotional imagery for you to be a person of science. Sorry. I doubt you.
OTOH, if you WERE among this group, it's all good since the science simply isn't solid...not if it's presented anything even close to in this way.
But just for shoots and giggles, since the link provided only mentioned that such science supposedly exists and not specifically what that science is, and since you say you've read peer-reviewed studies, would you please link those specific studies?
Whatever you think is fine, as I do not care.
The fact is that
a. I am a physician
b. pain management is my field
c. I have completed a two year fellowship
d. I am board certified in pain
e. I did participate in the information provided to the legislature
I am suprised, actually, that anyone was aware of the situation. It will appear in other venues, as it was very effective and based purely in scientific fact.
I would provide a transcript of the exact testimony to you, but I really do not want you to know who I am.
Last edited by CaseyB; 04-09-2010 at 06:41 PM..
Reason: personal attacks
I didn't ask for transcripts, I asked for the peer-reviewed studies you referenced, which presumably weren't written by you, so your continued anonymity is assured.
Last edited by CaseyB; 04-09-2010 at 06:42 PM..
Reason: taken care of
a. I am a physician
b. pain management is my field
c. I have completed a two year fellowship
d. I am board certified in pain
e. I did participate in the information provided to the legislature
I am suprised, actually, that anyone was aware of the situation. It will appear in other venues, as it was very effective and based purely in scientific fact.
I would provide a transcript of the exact testimony to you- tempting as that might be just to prove you are an idiot- I really do not want you to know who I am.
I thought you said you were a neurosurgeon?
When I see a peer-revue study by perinatal neurologists I will eagerly read it. Until that time all I see is a move by pro-lifers, including physicians with no domain specific expertise, attempting to slowly move towards abolishing abortion.
I do know. I helped with the testimony. It refers to late term abortions and the data is rock solid. A late term abortion, from a physiological pain pathway standpoint, would be the equivilent of drawing and quartering an adult. Now you are not advocating the drawing and quartering of adults, are you? If so, your views are perfectly consistent with the support of late term abortions and you should be an advocate for both that procedure, and adult torture.
Although you try to sound scientific you still resort to the pro-lifer tactic of demonizing the opponent. We have no way of knowing what you are saying is true unless you provide us a link to a peer reviewed medical journal. That would demonstrate your point a lot easier than over the top appeals to emotion. Thank you.
Last edited by CaseyB; 04-09-2010 at 06:48 PM..
Reason: rude
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