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You live in Lancaster, NY, correct? I remember reading some former posts of yours. Well, what's up, Max, if that's your actual name--I'm in West Seneca, NY. From a fellow resident of the southeastern suburbs of Buffalo, and a longtime sufferer of depression, I will say that your understanding of depression is limited, shall we say. However, it is well-documented (though not necessarily well-known) that SSRIs (also known as antidepressants) are a sham. Google "meta-analysis of SSRIs" or somesuch and you'll probably find your desired results eventually. So perhaps your OP deserves partial credit for its claim that people shouldn't be pill-dependent...but that partial credit that I'm possibly awarding would be largely due to unintended insight.
My depression has persisted for over a decade and is at least partially a function of being a certain kind of human alive in 2014. You may or may not be able to relate with the idea of existential depression or being a nihilist or ____, but IMO this kind of depression is essentially something that will never be "overcome", only continuously dealt with. Obviously, modern medicine is capable of anything (theoretically), and it's certainly not outside the question that we eventually arrive at a better understanding of neurotransmitters and are therefore able to craft a better chemical remedy, a potential panacea...certainly is possible. I've written some short fiction about said scenarios; it fascinates me.
I read a book called "Crazy Like Us" by Ethan Watters, and there was a valuable chapter within that work about how the stigma of depression is unique to the US...until the pharmaceutical companies managed to gain a foothold in certain key foreign markets (like Japan, which featured prominently in this chapter), wherein they first aimed to redefine traditional ideas of "melancholy" as depression and thereafter pitch their pricey-but-ineffective cure for their newly created "illness". Don't misunderstand me, though--cultural differences in understanding (or semantics) notwithstanding, depression is quite real. But understanding will vary, treatment will vary--and the only thing we can truly conclude at this point is that SSRIs are not the vehicle to which we should turn, Pfizer's massive marketing budget be damned.
The best book that I know of offhand for self-education on the issue of SSRI ineffectuality is "The Emperor's New Drugs" by Irving Kirsch. Reading that book back in 2007 or so compelled me to quit the Effexor that I was at that point being prescribed. Sevenish years later, it's hard to issue a verdict on whether I've improved from that time psychologically, but...at least any medication I now take is self-administered.
SSRI's (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) don't always work, as not all depression is caused by low levels of serotonin, but the science behind them is very sound if you've taken a college level physiology course. Basically they work by preventing the re-uptake of serotonin that is left over after neurons in the brain synapse (communicate). We are just beginning to truly understand both the nervous and endocrine systems. The knowledge we've gained over the last 30 years in regards to mental illness was science fiction not so long ago. People forget that mental illness has been a subject of debate since ancient times. The same people that think depression is fake today were burning people at the stake for being "crazy" just a few hundred years ago.
SSRI's (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) don't always work, as not all depression is caused by low levels of serotonin, but the science behind them is very sound if you've taken a college level physiology course. Basically they work by preventing the re-uptake of serotonin that is left over after neurons in the brain synapse (communicate). We are just beginning to truly understand both the nervous and endocrine systems. The knowledge we've gained over the last 30 years in regards to mental illness was science fiction not so long ago. People forget that mental illness has been a subject of debate since ancient times. The same people that think depression is fake today were burning people at the stake for being "crazy" just a few hundred years ago.
I don't doubt that they prevent the reuptake of serotonin. Their very name advertises that that is their function. What I doubt is that said reuptake actually matters in regards to curing/alleviating 'depression". Seems to be a classic case of correlation not equaling causation. If depression was easily solvable by serotonin levels then given the prevalence of SSRIs depression wouldn't be as rampant as it is. Read the book I cited, please. Said book looks at studies where SSREs (selective serotonin reuptake enhancers) were administered as reputed SSRIs and, thanks to the wonder that is the endorphin-releasing placebo effect, they were as minimally effective as SSRIs were/are.
Science has a long ways to go here. Admittedly I'm not on the front lines, but, it's embarrassingly primitive where we're at currently
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 02-27-2014 at 10:53 PM..
There are so many conditions now that are being referred to as diseases or illnesses that are no such thing. That doesn't make them any less real or debilitating. But that does lead people to think of them the wrong way and that can just make things worse.
Depression is as in_newengland described it, sometimes a mental condition and some times physical. Maybe you are in grief, in which case drugs are not going to help. You need something else.
Sometimes it's a matter of not enough serotonin getting to the receptors, in which case medication can help. I'm sure there are other physical issues.
Doctors getting kickbacks from drug companies so they prescribe their crap are part of the problem. Patients who feel they have to pop a pill to get better no matter what are another.
Ive seen lots of very very angry reactions to any notion that it isn't an illness, dismissed as "you don't get it, you are stupid, do your research etc." My problem is that neither they, the doctors, big pharma or the mental health community gets it either. Big pharma keeps making money though.
Yes -- big pharma "gets it".
Funny how today many more people are collecting good money for mental illness disability that includes "depression" than in the past when people knew they had to work for a living. If someone is getting drugs to treat depression but still can't hold down a job, the drugs aren't working.
Also even if someone is "depressed", not working doesn't help that at all.
I don't doubt that they prevent the reuptake of serotonin. Their very name advertises that that is their function. What I doubt is that said reuptake actually matters in regards to curing/alleviating 'depression". Seems to be a classic case of correlation not equaling causation. If depression was easily solvable by serotonin levels then given the prevalence of SSRIs depression wouldn't be as rampant as it is. Read the book I cited, please. Said book looks at studies where SSREs (selective serotonin reuptake enhancers) were administered as reputed SSRIs and, thanks to the wonder that is the endorphin-releasing placebo effect, they were as minimally effective as SSRIs were/are.
Science has a long ways to go here. Admittedly I'm not on the front lines, but, it's embarrassingly primitive where we're at currently
No offence, but the book you cited is nonsense. 99% of the science community would disregard it as a conspiracy book for entertainment purposes
To say that SSRI's are minimally ineffective for the treatment of mental illness would be pretty ignorant at this point given the massive amounts of research on the subject. I don't know how old you are, but I can tell you that Prozac was literally a wonder-drug when it came out and not just for the treatment of depression. Prozac changed the lives of people suffering from disorders like OCD, anorexia and panic disorder in a way that older psych meds such as tricyclics could not. As someone that works in the medical field, Iv'e always felt that there is no debate as to these drugs being effective for some people, but the real question is why are they effective. Do we truly understand why these drugs work. That seems to have always been a question in other treatments as well. Anyone that's ever had the pleasure of working in a a state mental hospital that administered electroshock treatment can tell you that it work's, but even in this day and age we still don't know !00% why it works. All we know is that resets the brain (like turning a computer on and off)
I was always a very active person. I was in an accident and all my cuts, bruises and broken bones healed. I spent months in Rehab learning to walk again and I entered a very bad place in my life. My body will never be what it was prior to the accident but my brain bottomed out on me. I never considered myself depressed even though I would be sitting and crying for no reason at all. I couldn't go into a grocery store I would get overwhelmed forgetting what I was in the store for in the first place, so I would just leave.
My neurologist diagnosed it as depression and he started me on the usual drugs. I was sick, one may not consider it a sickness or illness but your psyche can take a person to some dark places. I never believed people with depression and always thought they could pull themselves out of it until it happened to me.
I am medication free now, back in my happy place again by accepting, I am alive and have a family that loves me. I do keep one medication on hand but rarely need it for occasional panic attacks. But the black clouds that surrounded me is gone and I have compassion for anyone suffering from depression.
Part of the problem is some are using their occasional depression as a copout to take medication. I'm on an anti-depressant. My wife, relatives, and co-workers have noticed a big difference in me since I started taking them. I'd been on the verge of committing suicide since the age of 10 and I'm now 45. My depression had progressed to the point of my having my suicide completely planned out. It was at that point that I sought help. I'm still depressed, but I'm at a point that I can function and don't have that drive for suicide. I've had the same job for the past 14 years, a home, car, wife, and yet I was still ready to end it all with no reason to point to as to why.
Ive been depressed though life's ups and downs. I just don't think a person who has depression can effectively evaluate depression because they have resigned themselves to having an illness. If I saw people who have taken a medication to get better, perhaps id believe. I took an antibiotic to get rid of a tooth infection, its gone and I have moved on. Depression meds don't seem to be there yet and its all a big experiment. Makes me wonder if its an illness at all.
This, coupled with the op's first post, could be a troll but somehow I think not. Even if it is, he's opened a good topic. What he expressed is not an uncommon idea among certain types of men and women. I hate to say it, but I used to be one. Not quite to his extreme but I thought that depression was a result of weakmindedness or just giving in to negative emotions and feelings. Because I had beaten back minor depression with positive thought, hard physical labor and a wee bit of booze.......OK........a lot of booze, I thought that you could "power" through depression. As I watched my first wife go through bout after bout of horrible depression, for no apparent reason, I began to understand how juvenile my outlook had been. While we had a happy marriage, a house and great jobs she couldn't possibly stay depressed.......there was no reason....yet she did. Losing nearly half her body weight, sleeping 18 hours a day and almost losing a job she loved dearly she was finally pulled out of her spiral when her doc hit upon the right mix of meds. I was not a fan of the trial and error type of prescribing they do with those SSRI drugs, they eventually did work.
Years later when those drugs were tried on me, I discovered that the actual mechanism of these drugs was largely unknown and after a couple of horrific misfires, I turned to meditation and journaling. However, they do work for some people and for those people they can be lifesavers.......too bad I'm not one of them. I would like to see doctors encourage a more holistic approach to treating depression, i.e. eating right, proper exercise, meditation and affirmations.......too often, we turn to pharmaceuticals as a first line of defense but for some, I acknowledge, they might be a necessity. Personally, I think that hallucinogens will one day provide the best cure for depression but I'm afraid that day is a long way off.
In short - I think it's difficult to grasp just how devastating depression can be unless you've experienced it yourself........if you never have, hope you never do.
Should I believe the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the Royal Academy of Medicine in the U.K., and every other reputable medical, psychiatric and psychological authority on planet earth when they say clinical depression is a real illness? Or should I believe some guy on CD who says he knows some people who claim to depressed who he thinks are faking?
I think I'll go with option A...
Well played, repped.
Some evidence of testing performed and results from any one of those bodies would help.
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