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>>The OP has a choice: either he can spend the time, money and effort required to try to learn how to communicate more effectively with his wife and improve his marriage (for both of them, not just his wife), or he can spend the time, money, and effort on divorce proceedings. Because that's the direction his marriage is heading right now.<<<
Just now my wife sent me the pictures from my 10-year-old's school trip, which the school put together. She had to tag on a reminder that the kid's good looks come from her side of the family.
And she is right; the kid is very good looking, and it more likely came from her. While I don't agree that that "contribution" earns her the right to do whatever she wants, I AM forever grateful. I will never divorce my wife because of that plus I will never want to hurt my kids.
So by process of elimination, 1) I won't divorce her, and if 2) I can't change her, that means I just have to live with this for the rest of my life.
I feel so sorry for your children. Either fix your marriage or get out. Children would rather be FROM a broken home than have to live in one. Don't make your children grow up in this very broken home.
I will never divorce my wife because of that plus I will never want to hurt my kids.
Just because you won't divorce her doesn't mean that she won't divorce you. It only takes one person to end a marriage.
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So by process of elimination, 1) I won't divorce her, and if 2) I can't change her, that means I just have to live with this for the rest of my life.
Or you can try another option: see if working with a counselor will allow BOTH of you to make changes that will make each of you happier in your marriage.
You and your wife are clearly very different people, and the stresses in your relationship are long-standing. It may not be possible to save your marriage, but given the way you feel about it, it's certainly worth trying!
Just because you won't divorce her doesn't mean that she won't divorce you. It only takes one person to end a marriage.
I do recognize that. When my wife started to complain about me more and more years ago, on things I found quite unreasonable, I have told her that if she find another man she rather be with, she can leave me any time; I'm happy to let her go. I remember joking "just don't kill me". I was that confident her complaints were baseless. All these years later she hasn't divorced me.
That offer still stands today. If she wants a divorce today I will of course try to persuade her not to, because of the kids. And I am confident she will not divorce me either for that same reason. She loves the kids too much to do that.
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Originally Posted by Aredhel
Or you can try another option: see if working with a counselor will allow BOTH of you to make changes that will make each of you happier in your marriage.
We did and hence this experience with marriage counselor. The result has not convince even my wife to go back, even though we have more sessions covered by her benefits. This is one of the many things I leave it to her completely; and she has not demanded that we go back or go to another counselor.
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Originally Posted by Aredhel
You and your wife are clearly very different people, and the stresses in your relationship are long-standing. It may not be possible to save your marriage, but given the way you feel about it, it's certainly worth trying!
I recognize now that we are very different. But I can tell you, she was a different person back when we were dating. I think she put up an act back then, because one of our co-workers who is my buddy disclosed to me, that back then everyone else thought my wife was hard to deal with.
If she were this demanding then, I probably would not have married her. But what is done is done. I can only look to the future. My guiding principle now is "do enough to satisfy her, and still have some left over to pursue what I want."
I commend your actions. You're taking full responsibility for the kid you helped make, and you're putting the kid as your first priority. Because that's what marriage is ultimately about: kids. Making and raising them. That said, don't stay together solely for the kids. Kids are way better mind readers than adults give them credit for, and they will pick up on their parents' unhappiness, even if they don't say anything. In which case, a divorce with joint custody (50/50 time with mom and dad) isn't a bad idea, either. Because, when the kids grow up and move out, all you'll have left is the shell of a marriage you have now, devoid of your interests and hobbies. And when the kid lives on their own as an adult, it won't make much difference to them if they visit their married parents or their divorced parents. So keep that in mind.
That said, the way you describe your marriage, it's a lot like how imagine my future marriage to be: not horrible enough to want to drop off the face of the earth, but by and large burdensome and unpleasant. So I'm doing a noble (sort of) act of my own: not getting married at all. (Being friends with women is still cool with me.) I'm pretty sure most women won't be happy with a husband like me , who likens marriage to being in prison and having a correctional officer as a cellmate.
Well you said it yourself -- having kids is the best experience one can have. I hope you have kids no matter what.
My wife and I were both workaholics when we were younger, and put off having kids until very late. When we did, we regretted not having them sooner.
The above is kind of how I felt. And in addition, in that one session we went to at my wife's demand, I felt that the counselor's goal was simply for my wife and I to reach a consensus between us, ANY consensus, WHEREVER it is on the scale of fairness.
So if the husband gives in to a demanding wife, that might be a successful case. Or on the contrary, if a submissive wife gives in to a chauvinistic husband, who prohibits her from talking to other men on the street (we all know this type exists), but himself flirts with other women, it seemed that might also be a successful case.
Understand that we only had one session, maybe the good stuff is to come later, but that's how I felt the whole thing was going, so I didn't want to go any more (and even my wife did not choose to continue to go either, although there are more sessions paid by the company, otherwise I would still put up with it and go). From beginning to end the counselor did not offer any view on where either one of us was being unreasonable, and should improve. She just recommended a book to read.
Of course she didn't "offer any view". That you expected this says a lot. A marriage counselor is a THERAPIST. Do therapists tell you what to do or offer their view? No. So, neither will the marriage counselor. Like any therapist, their job is to listen and direct, tweak the sails a bit to help get the boat going in a different direction
Understand that you aren't special or unique or different from a dozen other married couples except for the details. She assessed you and sized you up in five minutes. If she DID tell you what she sees, you would not listen. It takes time and the peeling off of layers.
It was a reference to the classic TV sitcom "Seinfeld", that's become ingrained in the pop culture. That's where the fictitious holiday Festivus and its traditions came from. In the show, it was a dark-humored pushback against Christmas and Hanukkah.
I guess the lynch mob the OP was met with is a glaring evidence of groupthink. "Society" (notice the quotes) says that marriage counseling is a good thing. So any statements that it's not always good are met with torches and pitchforks.
No, that's not what happened. What happened is that the OP thought marriage counseling/therapy is supposed to be something other than what it is. And, it seems, so do you.
Thank you, OP. So, you don't think the marriage is salvageable, or you don't want to work to improve it? You're throwing in the towel on marriage counseling, after 1 session with 1 counselor? That would be unwise, for reasons I pointed out earlier. But you sound as though you'd like things to improve, and are tired of arguing about a lot of things. Understand that there are different counselors with different approaches, and maybe try a few.
The problem may not be how you two argue/discuss. It may be that you have different value systems in some important areas, so you're constantly playing tug-of-war on points that are important to you. That's a different kind of issue. Reframing your goal in counseling might help; you might look for a counselor that can help you resolve fundamental differences, and find a middle ground.
I say this, recalling your examples of not agreeing what to spend money on. Money issues are key to compatibility. Travel styles that don't mesh also have been known to permanently break up couples. You're an explorer, while she & the kids are into just relaxing and enjoying the pool and beach. In some respects, you and your wife are very different people.
I think you need to think about what things you have in common with your wife. Why did you marry her? What qualities of hers caught your interest? Find things you can enjoy together, and focus on those. Work on rebuilding a relationship with each other; figure out how to have a date night once or twice/month, and do things you both find fun. Re-bond with each other. A counselor could facilitate that, and give you other ideas and pointers.
I am actually quite confident that my marriage will be intact, because I can bend a lot to make wife happy. The only question to me is happiness.
Of course I want things to improve; but I feel it should be her changing some of her views and value system. I hope I never come to think it's worth it to fly the whole family to Hawaii just to sit by the pool side! So on this topic we survive by annually taking the Hawaii trip, AND I go off the beaches of California. Am I happy to blow that money? No. But I do it.
Where I draw the line, is when her demands start to impact people other than me. Let me explain why the "living close to grandparent" example was an issue for us. After we got married, wife demanded that we live close to HER parents. We only considered houses within a 2-mile radius of the in-law's house. I recommended something close to town center about 10 miles away; she would not have it. She had to have it her way, and l let her.
By the way, 15 years later the differential between the 2 houses is near $1 million. Every now and then I show her the market value just to remind her of that great decision (and then she counters with how good looking the kids she produced).
But OK, that's just money; back to my point -- Because we chose the location we are at, we are 30 miles from where MY parents live. Naturally when we needed some help with kids, like pick up from school or baby-sitting, mostly we ask her parents. But when her parents are not available, wife expects my parents to drive 30 miles to help, and complains my parents "don't help out". I find that demand to be ridiculous, because my parents don't help out as much only because wife had chosen the place we are living. If we live 1 mile from my parents, it would be my parents who provide most of the help. In another word, it was my wife's own doing that produced the situation she was complaining about. I am willing to make the sacrifice myself, but I absolutely refuse to inconvenience my parents. My solution to this: we hired a household help for a while. But that did not work out too ideal either and we stopped.
What I think I need, is a fair-minded person to tell us who needs to change thinking. We can already talk to each other calmly on our own.
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, who likens marriage to being in prison and having a correctional officer as a cellmate.
