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Did you know that Apple is building a campus nearby ?
Apple is building in Cary; Google is building in Durham. RTP is already 7 miles long with minimal density.
Every time I see a successful commuter rail project, it is bringing people from the suburbs to a central city where the commute times without rail would be prohibitive. I struggle to see anywhere in the Triangle that first that description. Jobs in the Triangle tend to be spread out over a large geographic area, making commuter rail challenging. I wonder what work patterns will look like in 10-20 years (optimistic for commuter rail). With people either working remotely or having a hybrid work environment, and technology accelerating it over the next few decades, the need for commuter rail further diminishes.
Apple is building in Cary; Google is building in Durham. RTP is already 7 miles long with minimal density.
Every time I see a successful commuter rail project, it is bringing people from the suburbs to a central city where the commute times without rail would be prohibitive. I struggle to see anywhere in the Triangle that first that description. Jobs in the Triangle tend to be spread out over a large geographic area, making commuter rail challenging. I wonder what work patterns will look like in 10-20 years (optimistic for commuter rail). With people either working remotely or having a hybrid work environment, and technology accelerating it over the next few decades, the need for commuter rail further diminishes.
Parking is also a big consideration. When taking a commuter train into NYC or Washington, one of the big advantages is avoiding the high cost and hassles of parking. There's ample free parking in RTP.
Apple is building in Cary; Google is building in Durham. RTP is already 7 miles long with minimal density.
Every time I see a successful commuter rail project, it is bringing people from the suburbs to a central city where the commute times without rail would be prohibitive. I struggle to see anywhere in the Triangle that first that description. Jobs in the Triangle tend to be spread out over a large geographic area, making commuter rail challenging. I wonder what work patterns will look like in 10-20 years (optimistic for commuter rail). With people either working remotely or having a hybrid work environment, and technology accelerating it over the next few decades, the need for commuter rail further diminishes.
That's my point.
All rail mass transit systems lose money, and all are subsidized by taxpayers. Fares do not cover operational costs. When I was a kid, we lived in the suburbs of Chicago (Naperville) and my father took the train to the city. So I understand what you are saying in terms of folks commuting into the city for work. Perhaps people could commute from Clayton to RTP 20 years from now ?
Based upon our existing growth, this area will be on another level in 20 years. You plan for the future now rather than waiting another 20 years. Folks working in Life Science industries can't work from home.
To be clear, I am not a fan of building a new network of Light Rail from scratch as I previously mentioned. Still, the Commuter Rail spine makes more sense. To me.
BEV V. ICE
The solution to traffic jams and road rage and 40,000 highway fatalities / year and fossil fuel depletion is not the BEV (battery electric vehicle) to replace the internal combustion engine (ICE).
. . .
The most feasible solution involves replacing 80-90% of private automobiles with streetcars, trams, light rail and heavy rail passenger service.
A typical automobile is 14.7 ft. And during rush hour, 1.2 passengers per vehicle.
Due to safety, and spacing requirements, the total number of vehicles per lane per hour, regardless of speed, comes to 2,000 vehicles per hour.
2,400 passengers x 14.7 ft = 35,280 ft. (10753 meters)
Roads have ultimate capacity limits that can be determined by traffic engineering. They usually experience a chaotic breakdown in flow and a dramatic drop in speed (colloquially known as a traffic jam) if they exceed about 2,000 vehicles per hour per lane (each car roughly two seconds behind another). Studies show that the average car occupancy on many roads carrying commuters is only about 1.2 people per car during the high-demand rush hour periods of the day. This combination of factors limits roads carrying only automobile commuters to a maximum observed capacity of about 2,400 passengers per hour per lane.
IN contrast, the longest Bombardier FLEXITY low floor tram is 147 ft (45m) in length, and can carry 260 passengers with 153 seats.
To move 2,400 passengers per hour, at 80% capacity, would require 12 trains per hour. Or, in terms of headway, 60 minutes / 12 trains = 5 minutes.
A train every 5 minutes.
Parking space
12 trains x 147 ft = 1,764 ft. (537.6 meters)
-versus-
2,000 automobiles x 14.7 ft = 29,400 ft. (8961 meters)
THIS IS WHY RAIL IS THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION.
As populations keep growing, and urban development becomes more dense, the only transportation mode that can effectively and efficiently move is rail transportation.
And if passenger loads require it, trains can be lengthened, a second level added, and headway reduced, and still not require additional tracks.
A car may be cheaper per unit, but in operation, a train is far cheaper.
For a 24 hour duty cycle, where 2,000 vehicles per lane per hour are operating.
The round trip means 0.5 x 24 x 2000 vehicles are in use.
24,000 vehicles per lane.
But since trains are reused, a 12 train per hour service might only require 4 trains (assuming it takes 20 minutes per route). Worst case, 12 trains for a 1 hour route.
24,000 vehicles x $20,000 price = $480,000,000 (not counting fuel, parking, etc)
A single Flexity train = $7.3 million USD.
12 trains = $87.6 million USD.
And the expected lifespan of a train is far longer than a private automobile.
WHY AREN'T WE "GETTING BACK ON TRACK"? Follow the money, honey...
In the average family budget, after housing, the second most expensive item is the family automobile(s). "Someone" doesn't want that figure to drop by 80%. Too many "rice bowls" depend on keeping Americans hostage to the automobile.
Given the current housing locations in the triangle if the solution is "replacing 80-90% of private automobiles with streetcars, trams, light rail and heavy rail passenger service", how do those people that live more than 1/2 mile (probably more than 80-90% of the triangle, but that's just a WAG) from a station actually get to the station?
This is a silly loaded question. People were saying the same thing about the 540 toll road and that has seen increased usage year over year.
Look at the influx of people that have moved to the area where toll 540 ridership has increased and you'll see it has increased with people moving in from areas where toll roads were common. Relatively few people that have been here since before the toll road pay to ride which is why when toll 540 is wide open, I-40 is crawling along.
NC-540 was almost a good idea. But, it should have been set to be a toll road for only 15-20 years which is the projected amount of time that it would have taken to build without it being a toll road. Now it will be a toll road forever and there will always be north triangle vs south triangle inequality in paying to ride 540. If it was just tolls for a limited time, then those that want to pay would pay the premium and those that didn't would take alternate routes until the road was free.
Apple is building in Cary; Google is building in Durham. RTP is already 7 miles long with minimal density.
Every time I see a successful commuter rail project, it is bringing people from the suburbs to a central city where the commute times without rail would be prohibitive. I struggle to see anywhere in the Triangle that first that description. Jobs in the Triangle tend to be spread out over a large geographic area, making commuter rail challenging. I wonder what work patterns will look like in 10-20 years (optimistic for commuter rail). With people either working remotely or having a hybrid work environment, and technology accelerating it over the next few decades, the need for commuter rail further diminishes.
I hate to admit it because it would be great if this region did have commuter rail, but your comment is right on point. When it comes down to it, rail will never get enough ridership in this area to be sustainable until people could go from their house to the rail lot (either car, bike or walk) and then take the train to their workplace or destination faster than it would take to drive and find a parking space.
Look at the influx of people that have moved to the area where toll 540 ridership has increased and you'll see it has increased with people moving in from areas where toll roads were common. Relatively few people that have been here since before the toll road pay to ride which is why when toll 540 is wide open, I-40 is crawling along.
You're going to need to cite your specific sources for that wild ride of a straw man theory.
The amount of mental gymnastics some people do on here is hilarious.
You're going to need to cite your specific sources for that wild ride of a straw man theory.
The amount of mental gymnastics some people do on here is hilarious.
Is it not plainly obvious that fewer people take the Triangle Expressway than would otherwise because of the toll? On the one hand, the road was likely built sooner than it would have otherwise because of the tolls, but on the other hand, people hesitate to use it because of the additional cost, so it's benefit is less than it could have been.
Is it not plainly obvious that fewer people take the Triangle Expressway than would otherwise because of the toll? On the one hand, the road was likely built sooner than it would have otherwise because of the tolls, but on the other hand, people hesitate to use it because of the additional cost, so it's benefit is less than it could have been.
Of course it is, but that's not the quote I was replying to, reread what i was quoting in my post. The user is making a claim that the only people that ride the toll road are those that have moved here where toll roads are common.
Of course it is, but that's not the quote I was replying to.
Which part are you trolling?
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