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I agree the writing left much to be desired, but it was the only "pro gun" source I could find that I assumed wouldn't be challenged for source bias. I knew you wouldn't accept the Atlantic or or a medical piece from the Bulwark as a source. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I made no point about its utilization for hunting, but I'll note you do admit one thing my buddies who have ARs won't, that it isn't a good tool for hunting. Guess it gives a little more credence to one of them who when I asked why he needed a loaded handgun and AR unsecured in his house with a 6 year old at home "because I live in the ghetto and I can".
And no, the AR15 isn't a military weapon. But the M4 and M16 are, and use similar sized rounds (remember this sidebar started when you brought up caliber as a key call out about damage in a reply to another poster)
It sure seems there is something to the speed an AR15 can hurl a round at which makes it "more than one would think". Cavitation. But I'll raise the white flag and get this conversation back to where it should have been.
Be that as it may, thanks for the respectful back and forth.
The AR is a great hunting platform. Just not in it's stock form. You can get it chambered in something like 25 different calibers and it's capable of taking all N American game.
The point I was trying to make by getting cute and quoting The Who was that it's not the kids' fault. It's because it's too easy to access guns in this country. There are also plenty of mass shootings involving older men, too. I believe the average age of mass shooters is 35. School shootings are predominately teen boys, though.
Sure there is a mental health crisis across all age groups right now. The pandemic did a number on a lot of people and I do think teens were especially vulnerable.
And yes I think social media is not good for people and it obviously spreads fads/trends at best and dangerous misinformation and ideas (such as shooting up your neighborhood) at worst.
But THE reason we have mass shootings in this country is due to the availability of guns. That's it. Y'all can argue about bullets and caliber and all that, but it comes down to the availability of guns. If the alienated white male can't access the gun then he has to resort to a knife or fists. Knives can certainly be deadly, but not in the way that an AR-15 or even a rifle or a pistol is.
Suicide by gun is a big problem in this country too as are accidental shootings like the toddler in Benson.
Yes, if there were no guns, there'd be no gun deaths. But that's a bit overly simplistic when discussing ways to potentially keep this kind of thing from happening again. It's not realistic to think that we'll rid the country of all guns even if we are able to tighten restrictions. We will almost certainly allow guns like shotguns and certain rifles for hunting and to be used by farmers/ranchers etc. With that, I think it's worth looking into all aspects when looking for ways to reduce these kinds of incidences.
I agree the writing left much to be desired, but it was the only "pro gun" source I could find that I assumed wouldn't be challenged for source bias. I knew you wouldn't accept the Atlantic or or a medical piece from the Bulwark as a source. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I made no point about its utilization for hunting, but I'll note you do admit one thing my buddies who have ARs won't, that it isn't a good tool for hunting. Guess it gives a little more credence to one of them who when I asked why he needed a loaded handgun and AR unsecured in his house with a 6 year old at home "because I live in the ghetto and I can".
And no, the AR15 isn't a military weapon. But the M4 and M16 are, and use similar sized rounds (remember this sidebar started when you brought up caliber as a key call out about damage in a reply to another poster)
It depends what your hunting. A .223 for deer is on the verge of being underpowered. Capable, but less than ideal. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR
It sure seems there is something to the speed an AR15 can hurl a round at which makes it "more than one would think". Cavitation.
Really, there isn't. They cavitate because they don't mushroom and expand. As bad as cavitation sounds it's better than a bullet that opens up; the international community recognized this 100 years ago. Cheap FMJ ammo is available in abundance because its also what the military uses.
The point I was trying to make by getting cute and quoting The Who was that it's not the kids' fault. It's because it's too easy to access guns in this country. There are also plenty of mass shootings involving older men, too. I believe the average age of mass shooters is 35. School shootings are predominately teen boys, though.
Sure there is a mental health crisis across all age groups right now. The pandemic did a number on a lot of people and I do think teens were especially vulnerable.
And yes I think social media is not good for people and it obviously spreads fads/trends at best and dangerous misinformation and ideas (such as shooting up your neighborhood) at worst.
But THE reason we have mass shootings in this country is due to the availability of guns. That's it. Y'all can argue about bullets and caliber and all that, but it comes down to the availability of guns. If the alienated white male can't access the gun then he has to resort to a knife or fists. Knives can certainly be deadly, but not in the way that an AR-15 or even a rifle or a pistol is.
Suicide by gun is a big problem in this country too as are accidental shootings like the toddler in Benson.
Depending on what you believe is a mass shooting most "mass shootings" are still in inner city ghettos. Three or more people being shot and it is normally with a handgun.
If we look at historical data which is 5 or more and dead not just shot.
Percentages pretty much reflect race in general which is not surprising.
It depends what your hunting. A .223 for deer is on the verge of being underpowered. Capable, but less than ideal. .
Really, there isn't. They cavitate because they don't mushroom and expand. As bad as cavitation sounds it's better than a bullet that opens up; the international community recognized this 100 years ago. Cheap FMJ ammo is available in abundance because its also what the military uses.
Ya I got nothing on the hunting front; what is good or not. Ill leave that to you guys since you know far more than I do. There are few places you won't ever see GVoR. In the woods killing something is one of those places.
But isn't the cavitation and the damage a bullet causes, directly related to the projectile's speed (since speed is squared in the KE equation) and Kinetic Energy? More velocity = More Kinetic Energy. More Kinetic Energy = More Damage
I mean if you took to me a range and say pulled out three weapons; a Handgun (say a Glock 19), an AR15 and a some kind of "hunting rifle" (is .306 a hunting round?) and we fired all three into a ballistics gel target...the three wounds produced would be drastically different would they not?
The mere scientific equation for KE says they would be different (bullet masses would be different and their velocities would be different, therefore the energy produced and released would have to be different. More energy, more destruction).
Which goes back to my original point, if a bullet's potential for damage is directly related to its Kinetic Energy, then a smaller (by weight) bullet (.223 is fairly small correct? you and taxpayer keep saying small and underpowered) can do more damage than a bigger bullet with a slower velocity (which is the squared portion of the KE equation).
Small bullet going really really fast, mathematically, can do more damage than a bigger, slower bullet.
Sure, If I shoot you in the chest with a Glock and the calf with an AR15, the handgun round may kill you and the AR may not (the lower KE round "did more damage"). But holding stuff like that equal, like for like, higher KE means higher damage.
Depending on what you believe is a mass shooting most "mass shootings" are still in inner city ghettos. Three or more people being shot and it is normally with a handgun.
If we look at historical data which is 5 or more and dead not just shot.
Percentages pretty much reflect race in general which is not surprising.
It's why I always add "indiscriminate/random" to my use of the term mass shooting. For this reader, there is a qualitative aspect to it that is missing when you boil it down to the quantitive alone (and if I am on an island on that, so be it.)
Some kid walking through a greenway, shooting 4-5 people and a dog randomly is miles different than some dude shooting 4-5 people because they encroached on his dealing territory.
I don't concern myself at all with the latter; that's the police's responsibility. But the former could happen, sadly, to anyone (as we see repeatedly in this country)
Dealing drugs/other criminal activity has risks; my dealer in college woke up with a handgun to his head. Going for a walk, to church, to school, to the movies, to a concert shouldn't have the same/similar risk profile.
ETA - a silly proxy. Whitey Bulger killed something like 11 people over a long period of time. The definition of serial killer is 3 or more over a long period of time. I have never heard anyone call Whitey Bulger a serial killer. But he was a gangster.
It's why I always add "indiscriminate/random" to my use of the term mass shooting. For this reader, there is a qualitative aspect to it that is missing when you boil it down to the quantitive alone (and if I am on an island on that, so be it.)
Some kid walking through a greenway, shooting 4-5 people and a dog randomly is miles different than some dude shooting 4-5 people because they encroached on his dealing territory.
I don't concern myself at all with the latter; that's the police's responsibility. But the former could happen, sadly, to anyone (as we see repeatedly in this country)
Dealing drugs/other criminal activity has risks; my dealer in college woke up with a handgun to his head. Going for a walk, to church, to school, to the movies, to a concert shouldn't have the same/similar risk profile.
ETA - a silly proxy. Whitey Bulger killed something like 11 people over a long period of time. The definition of serial killer is 3 or more over a long period of time. I have never heard anyone call Whitey Bulger a serial killer. But he was a gangster.
Uhhh nope? My dealer in college got robbed by a gang from the projects in the town next to where I went to college. Nutn Freudian about it. True story.
ETA - did you think it was Freudian in a "no one would admit something on this place?" type of way?
If so, nah, I have mentioned my lifestyle choices here many a time. Not really a secret.
Ya I got nothing on the hunting front; what is good or not. Ill leave that to you guys since you know far more than I do. There are few places you won't ever see GVoR. In the woods killing something is one of those places.
But isn't the cavitation and the damage a bullet causes, directly related to the projectile's speed (since speed is squared in the KE equation) and Kinetic Energy? More velocity = More Kinetic Energy. More Kinetic Energy = More Damage
I mean if you took to me a range and say pulled out three weapons; a Handgun (say a Glock 19), an AR15 and a some kind of "hunting rifle" (is .306 a hunting round?) and we fired all three into a ballistics gel target...the three wounds produced would be drastically different would they not?
The mere scientific equation for KE says they would be different (bullet masses would be different and their velocities would be different, therefore the energy produced and released would have to be different. More energy, more destruction).
Which goes back to my original point, if a bullet's potential for damage is directly related to its Kinetic Energy, then a smaller (by weight) bullet (.223 is fairly small correct? you and taxpayer keep saying small and underpowered) can do more damage than a bigger bullet with a slower velocity (which is the squared portion of the KE equation).
Small bullet going really really fast, mathematically, can do more damage than a bigger, slower bullet.
Sure, If I shoot you in the chest with a Glock and the calf with an AR15, the handgun round may kill you and the AR may not (the lower KE round "did more damage"). But holding stuff like that equal, like for like, higher KE means higher damage.
No?
Too many variables for real world situations. It would make sense for say, ballistic gel but not much on a live target. I've shot deer with a .300 win mag that passed straight through because it didn't hit bone. Entrance wound .30 exit wound about the size of a quarter. That's really where the transfer of energy matters most. Otherwise that energy is wasted. We have to use copper now in CA and it's essential you hit bone or it is like shooting it with a target arrow. Just a tiny hole all the way through it.
There is a reason why most States don't allow .223 to hunt big game animals. You'll just wound too many.
Another thing is that most dangerous game rifles don't have crazy muzzle velocity. They toss a huge projectile at around 2000 fps.
Suicide by gun is a big problem in this country too as are accidental shootings like the toddler in Benson.
I still can't wrap my head around on how a 2 year old was able to go to Dad's truck and get a loaded firearm. To me that was NOT an "unfortunate accident" as stated by JCSO. From everything that has been shared so far on that incident it sounds like pure negligence to me. I'm going to repeat myself...........
When are we going to start holding the adults responsible for things like this???
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