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I didn't say that I'd hire an attorney with no experience, but somebody will.
These timelines are what it takes a high school graduate to get to the point where they get paid for their time (assuming they pass some licensing exams)
As should be obvious to anyone, there is a vast gulf between the education required to be a lawyer and one that's needed to be a realtor.
(BTW, since your job is literally a salesman, I must say I'm unimpressed with your social skills)
"Getting paid for their time" is NOT evidence of training. Training happens post-licensing to qualify the agent for that pay for time.
Your post more or less seemed to put a lid on training as if getting a license was completion of training, not a threshold or foundation from which to begin training.
And, of course due to that connotation in its delivery, it was untrue and erroneous.
Your "explanation" doesn't correct that impression.
A newly licensed agent, depending on state of licensure, commonly cannot be paid independently for brokerage services, without extensive training and supervision by a trained and experienced supervising broker.
It takes a lot more than 3 weeks to train to serve properly.
I am a respectful fan of the legal profession, and know they rest a bit higher on the food chain than I do, having earned that position via learning, passing the bar, followed by training and experience.
And, I have worked with many attorneys who are complimentary supporters of my skillsets learned through ongoing training and learning, and of my efforts.
Recognizing the inordinately silly basis and clear lack of intellectual integrity at the foundation of the entire thread, greatly due to the banality of the article linked in the OP but embraced in too much of the discussion, I have to ask: Was that helpful and accurate information delivered tenderly enough?
Last edited by MikeJaquish; 01-26-2018 at 09:24 AM..
I've been following this entire thread, although I haven't posted in several days.
I hate to see that it is degrading into insults and disrespect for real estate agents.
I have always appreciated the help and knowledge from our numerous agents, and I've never thought that they *personally* are overpaid for their work. Most of them are not exactly 1-percenters.
I think the problem in the US is how many slices the pie is divided into, and the fact that actual buyers and sellers pay for the wasted time of all the lookie-loos. I'm glad to have learned that there are ways to avoid paying a full 6% commission, as that has always been the case in my experience. Hopefully we can avoid paying $50K commission in a couple years, now that I know that amount is not set in stone. And Ihave learned that buyers agents aren't the norm everywhere. So this thread has been interesting and informative, but I don't like where it has headed lately.
...I think the problem in the US is how many slices the pie is divided into, and the fact that actual buyers and sellers pay for the wasted time of all the lookie-loos. I'm glad to have learned that there are ways to avoid paying a full 6% commission, as that has always been the case in my experience. ...
It IS a pretty weird dynamic, when one gets into it routinely.
There are so many permutations of "normalcy" that I have to shake my head some days.
And so many perspectives on opportunities for potential abuses or shortcomings or misunderstandings.
1. Agent gets paid by the hour.
"Sure, I will show you 100 homes. No problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"I worked from 10:00--Midnight on that search you requested via text at 8:00, so you could have that 6:00AM update. And, of course, I get a premium for evening work."
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says 'Doubletime,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and promised amenities, calling the onsite agent and another agent I know who has sold two there, and driving through the neighborhood twice, including looking at homes under construction, to prep for coming over to chat with you.
Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
2. Piecework. By the task.
"Sure. I will show you 100 houses. No Problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says '50% surcharge,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"There are 22 pages of CCRs. Do you want me to read them at $7.00/page?"
"The closing attorney cannot get information from the condo complex about their reserves, etc. They may be non-warrantable. Or, may be. Do you want me to call the agent and lean on her for help? $15."
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and the promised amenities, and driving through the neighborhood, prior to coming over. Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
Let your mind run freely along these lines.
What fun!
I've been following this entire thread, although I haven't posted in several days.
I hate to see that it is degrading into insults and disrespect for real estate agents.
I have always appreciated the help and knowledge from our numerous agents, and I've never thought that they *personally* are overpaid for their work. Most of them are not exactly 1-percenters.
I think the problem in the US is how many slices the pie is divided into, and the fact that actual buyers and sellers pay for the wasted time of all the lookie-loos. I'm glad to have learned that there are ways to avoid paying a full 6% commission, as that has always been the case in my experience. Hopefully we can avoid paying $50K commission in a couple years, now that I know that amount is not set in stone. And Ihave learned that buyers agents aren't the norm everywhere. So this thread has been interesting and informative, but I don't like where it has headed lately.
I do not think agents are overpaid either. Someone here keeps incorrectly saying that this is my position but I've never said that, nor do I think that. they are confusing saying "fees are too high" with "agent's make too much". Another failing of logic and comprehension. Sales people work hard and I believe that good, experienced, commissionable sales people in any industry who sell high value products and services should be making at the very least $250k personal income after all expenses (before tax). I don't think that's too much for a good sales person but I think that many agents fail to reach that basic level of variable earnings.
Like you, I have a problem with commission around 6% to sell a home. And I completely agree, also, that there are too many slices. I may very well be wrong but I predict that the buyer's agent concept as it stands today (sales commission paying for the buyer, splitting commissions, cooperative selling and client advocacy all mixed up in a nonsense model) will go away. I also believe that the only thing that will break this is action from regulators. Similar to what happened in financial services. Nobody can predict when regulators will act but I think it will roll out eventually - either through state actions or federal DoJ.
As for disrespect for agents, it needs to go both ways. Unfortunately one of our mature and professional agents decided it would be funny to count my words and post his 'analysis' of how many key strokes I've made in this thread. I don't think that ridiculing consumers for the number of characters they type is professional behavior. Although I may robustly argue ideas and points made by other posters, I do not make personal attacks like many of the agents here do. Not everyone likes what I say but i treat everyone with respect and I don't make personal attacks.
It IS a pretty weird dynamic, when one gets into it routinely.
There are so many permutations of "normalcy" that I have to shake my head some days.
And so many perspectives on opportunities for potential abuses or shortcomings or misunderstandings.
1. Agent gets paid by the hour.
"Sure, I will show you 100 homes. No problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"I worked from 10:00--Midnight on that search you requested via text at 8:00, so you could have that 6:00AM update. And, of course, I get a premium for evening work."
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says 'Doubletime,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and promised amenities, calling the onsite agent and another agent I know who has sold two there, and driving through the neighborhood twice, including looking at homes under construction, to prep for coming over to chat with you.
Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
2. Piecework. By the task.
"Sure. I will show you 100 houses. No Problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says '50% surcharge,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"There are 22 pages of CCRs. Do you want me to read them at $7.00/page?"
"The closing attorney cannot get information from the condo complex about their reserves, etc. They may be non-warrantable. Or, may be. Do you want me to call the agent and lean on her for help? $15."
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and the promised amenities, and driving through the neighborhood, prior to coming over. Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
Let your mind run freely along these lines.
What fun!
Frankly, the lack of vision here is staggering. You're just assuming that everything will operate exactly as it does today except for fixed or by the hour prices for every service.
Like someone in the 90s wondering how people could possibly buy airline tickets and whole vacations without a travel agent...
"Who will deliver the airline tickets to the customer - I spend half my time doing that??? Who will train customers to use the SABRE mainframe? I know the airlines and the routes so I know where to go for the cheapest fares...a customer can't possibly know this! Where will customers have to go to connect to the mainframe? How will customers possibly know what resorts are the best without my recommendations? People buying airline tickets themselves without a travel agent....yeah right...tell me another joke."
It IS a pretty weird dynamic, when one gets into it routinely.
There are so many permutations of "normalcy" that I have to shake my head some days.
And so many perspectives on opportunities for potential abuses or shortcomings or misunderstandings.
1. Agent gets paid by the hour.
"Sure, I will show you 100 homes. No problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"I worked from 10:00--Midnight on that search you requested via text at 8:00, so you could have that 6:00AM update. And, of course, I get a premium for evening work."
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says 'Doubletime,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and promised amenities, calling the onsite agent and another agent I know who has sold two there, and driving through the neighborhood twice, including looking at homes under construction, to prep for coming over to chat with you.
Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
2. Piecework. By the task.
"Sure. I will show you 100 houses. No Problem." ("WhoooHooo!")
"Sunday showings? 7 houses? Sure. You recall the agreement says '50% surcharge,' right?" ("WhoooHooo!")
"There are 22 pages of CCRs. Do you want me to read them at $7.00/page?"
"The closing attorney cannot get information from the condo complex about their reserves, etc. They may be non-warrantable. Or, may be. Do you want me to call the agent and lean on her for help? $15."
"You know, I just spent 4 hours reviewing zoning, development plats, builder products on their sites for Mildew Downs, and the promised amenities, and driving through the neighborhood, prior to coming over. Of course, that is built into the initial service deposit."
Let your mind run freely along these lines.
What fun!
Sure looks like you want to get into the legal advice business with a bunch of these.
Sure looks like you want to get into the legal advice business with a bunch of these.
Not at all.
I have responsibilities to clients that I don't shirk.
There's a heckuva lot of brokerage responsibility that falls short of "giving legal advice," even though lazy or incompetent agents excuse sloth by avoiding "giving legal advice."
Not at all.
I have responsibilities to clients that I don't shirk.
There's a heckuva lot of brokerage responsibility that falls short of "giving legal advice," even though lazy or incompetent agents excuse sloth by avoiding "giving legal advice."
Just a reminder that the rule is that you can't 'practice law'. Giving legal advice is a subset of practicing law and therefore would be a looser standard. I'm concerned if you are applying a looser standard than the regulations allow. I know that the post referred to 'legal advice' but as a professional, the correct standard should be discussed otherwise it could mislead or confuse.
here's something more on topic to get interested in ...
According to the 2017 NAR Survey of Buyers and Sellers, last year ~ 18% of sellers that used an agent used either Entry Only or Limited Service (both essentially fee-for-service) arrangements. This is a fairly steady number, only rising or falling by a couple of % points in the last decade...and actually down from 2016.
I do not think agents are overpaid either. Someone here keeps incorrectly saying that this is my position but I've never said that, nor do I think that. they are confusing saying "fees are too high" with "agent's make too much". Another failing of logic and comprehension.
Like you, I have a problem with commission around 6% to sell a home. And I completely agree, also, that there are too many slices. I may very well be wrong but I predict that the buyer's agent concept as it stands today (sales commission paying for the buyer, splitting commissions, cooperative selling and client advocacy all mixed up in a nonsense model) will go away.
on the easy side (hopefully) ...
you believe that Sellers should pay their agents based upon a % commission model.
you believe that Buyers should pay their own agents, based on a % model, or a retainer plus hourly, or just a negotiated amount all paid upfront, or ...?
on the harder side...
call me dense then, but given that 4% - 6% is the commission, and we are commissioned salespeople ... I don't know how it's illogical amongst all your anti-agent statements to say you don't think we're, as a whole, overpaid. Here's where all the voluminous postings works in your favor - it's just too damn hard to parse them all. But far be it from you to parse words of others and derive and assign whatever motive and meaning you choose.
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