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On topic: Women complain because they want a man that other women will want. Its dumb reasoning but its the way women think. A man to them has to be everything they are not, honest, strong, confident, etc. If you are not that anybody will rip you apart but it hurts the most when it is the sex you are interested in. Just as a rule don't care. Go on with your life, its not a woman you are mean to support or her kids. Its the kids that you have with her that you take care off and mold to your liking. Keep a woman far away enough and she will love you. You just have to play the game the right way. Its a stupid game but its the way people choose to live their life.
What you are insinuating here is that women are not honest, strong, and confident via "wanting everything they are not". That's delusional, d-boy.
Men get accused of being users and not being available for committed relationships. How ironic. Because here is an educated, one sigma above median income earning, able bodied, sexually active man, ACTIVELY bemoaning the fact I'd like to stop sport #ucking hookers and cougars for the chance at developing a monogamous life partnership.
Thank you for opening up a little. You don't usually exhibit any vulnerability here, so that was a nice change. But I wanted to point something out, something you might mull over.
You know the typical romance novel plot about the hardened rogue, whose wild heart was just waiting to be tamed by the right woman, revealing his true and gentle soul? The story about how the bad boy is really a good guy, deep down? People roll their eyes at those stories and make fun of women who believe them. I was ready to post a bunch of quotes as examples but figured the people who said them might not want to be roped into this conversation.
Please think about something. If it's foolish and silly for a woman to believe she can reform a man, it's equally foolish for a man to believe that a woman will reform him. Your posts are so consistently negative about women in general (and I can post quotes if you want me to show you) that you seem to have constructed a heavy defense around yourself. I understand that you've been hurt, but try to see how you come across. If you were a woman, how much patience would you exhibit with a man who says the things you have? Would you believe that there was a kind, loving soul in there, or would you dismiss that idea as romance novel nonsense?
Thank you for opening up a little. You don't usually exhibit any vulnerability here, so that was a nice change. But I wanted to point something out, something you might mull over.
You know the typical romance novel plot about the hardened rogue, whose wild heart was just waiting to be tamed by the right woman, revealing his true and gentle soul? The story about how the bad boy is really a good guy, deep down? People roll their eyes at those stories and make fun of women who believe them. I was ready to post a bunch of quotes as examples but figured the people who said them might not want to be roped into this conversation.
Please think about something. If it's foolish and silly for a woman to believe she can reform a man, it's equally foolish for a man to believe that a woman will reform him. Your posts are so consistently negative about women in general (and I can post quotes if you want me to show you) that you seem to have constructed a heavy defense around yourself. I understand that you've been hurt, but try to see how you come across. If you were a woman, how much patience would you exhibit with a man who says the things you have? Would you believe that there was a kind, loving soul in there, or would you dismiss that idea as romance novel nonsense?
I speak in generalities, which should imply I don't believe all women are that way. I speak academically about these issues, in fairly strong language, but that's not the way I interact with people offline. I recognize a rant on the merits of prenuptial agreements on the first date is not an adequate way of building a foundation in order to get to that point. So I don't think I'm actively defensive in my courting.
It's complex, but not complicated. In essence, don't trespass against me and I won't assume a defensive posture. It's really that simple. If you call me cheap because I live frugally and choose not to drive the expensive car, or live in the gated subdivision or exhibit the discretionary spending my professional level "socially demands" by judgment of your peers in your mind, and you're using that as a yardstick for why I'm not worthy of being pursued romantically by you, then you're trespassing against me. I don't think that's reasonable or warranted.
Who made women the gatekeepers of what is and what isn't worthy of pursuit? I raise no different a judgment on women, and all of a sudden I'm the one being labeled bitter and angry on this forum. It's double standard bullc--t and I'm sick of it. I don't consider getting run over in life a just opportunity cost to consummating a relationship. If that makes me inaccessible, then that's the impasse we're in then. If I have to yet again concede my values in order to appease a woman into 'gracing my life with her presence' and acknowledging a relationship with me, then I was meant to be alone. Because to me, ceding my values is objectively, unwaiverably and timelessly unacceptable as a way of conducting my life. I'm not saying this in an angry fashion, I'm simply trying to passionately impress how important I feel that item is in establishing success in relationships. And more to the point, I'm merely using the economics aspect to illustrate a bigger point which applies to other items of compatibility (sex money kids politics et al) in the pursuit of a life relationship.
If I was a woman, I would be reassured that this man is reliable, steady and passionate. All qualities I would kill for to have in a life partner. I would also not feel threatened by a prenup, and would as a woman, sign one gladly. I would be of like mind and the kind of woman that would like to be educated enough to hold some sort of gainful employment, as I, as a woman, would not have been socialized to believe my physical attributes are supposed to 'keep' me through life on account of a man's income and labor. That's if I was a woman listening to the postulations of me as hindsight2020.
But that's clearly not the feedback I'm getting. The feedback I'm getting, outside the one about 'tone', which i think it's being misunderstood (we already addressed that I don't approach people with the categorically stern way in which I write, though I am categorical in the way I live my life), is that I essentially have to tone down, not my speech, but my VALUES. I need to buy that expensive car, I need to flash my willingness to buy a woman's attention until she is satisfied with how I will materially provide for her, I need to dismiss that gibberish about prenup and go cold turkey on it again, I need to cede to a woman's vices, urges, impulses about one and any life topic, because that's the only way relationships are consumated, by ceding in all fundamental aspects of life. The feedback I get from this forum is that I need to be AGREEABLE with women, not RIGHTEOUS with women.
They want an honest, caring, strong, temperate man.....as long as he first and foremost satisfies my womanly material and emotional wants. That's the feedback i get on this forum. My rejection of that emotional suicide lands me in the purgatory of the unworthy bitter and angry men that can't see the light. That's what I get out of this forum's female feedback. I mean this in the most level headed way possible. I don't mean to attack anybody, even people on here who have made up their mind by a couple of posts they disagree with, about anything else I have to say. I'm fairly open to debating the value of the compatibility points I've highlighted, as that is really why I contribute to these threads. Ad hominem attacks, Im not so sure add anything to the conversation. My openness about my personal story is all but voluntary to share on my part. I don't have to entertain the constant attack on my character for some stranger's gratuitous sense of boredom. I could go back to sport &ucking during my nights and weekends.
Last edited by hindsight2020; 08-08-2011 at 12:08 PM..
If you were a woman, how much patience would you exhibit with a man who says the things you have? Would you believe that there was a kind, loving soul in there, or would you dismiss that idea as romance novel nonsense?
Heh, you don't think that's what they say to the women's faces, do you...?!
I speak in generalities, which should imply I don't believe all women are that way. I speak academically about these issues, in fairly strong language, but that's not the way I interact with people offline. I recognize a rant on the merits of prenuptial agreements on the first date is not an adequate way of building a foundation in order to get to that point. So I don't think I'm actively defensive in my courting.
Okay. I've heard very similar statements from so-called nice guys here on the board, though. A few of them will say plainly that they are good, decent, nice men, and when they are called out for using violent words (talking about physical violence, such beating women up, slapping them around, burning them with blowtorches, etc.), they backpedal and say they aren't really like that in real life. The anonymity of the Internet is kind of like alcohol, in my opinion, in that people can use it as an excuse to show themselves. I've gotten DMs from a few supposed "nice guys" calling me names, telling me I should die, and so on. Perhaps I regard your posts with too much cynicism as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
It's complex, but not complicated. In essence, don't trespass against me and I won't assume a defensive posture. It's really that simple. If you call me cheap because I live frugally and choose not to drive the expensive car, or live in the gated subdivision or exhibit the discretionary spending my professional level "socially demands" by judgment of your peers in your mind, and you're using that as a yardstick for why I'm not worthy of being pursued romantically by you, then you're trespassing against me. I don't think that's reasonable or warranted.
Who made women the gatekeepers of what is and what isn't worthy of pursuit? I raise no different a judgment on women, and all of a sudden I'm the one being labeled bitter and angry on this forum. It's double standard bullc--t and I'm sick of it. I don't consider getting run over in life a just opportunity cost to consummating a relationship. If that makes me inaccessible, then that's the impasse we're in then. If I have to yet again concede my values in order to appease a woman into 'gracing my life with her presence' and acknowledging a relationship with me, then I was meant to be alone. Because to me, ceding my values is objectively, unwaiverably and timelessly unacceptable as a way of conducting my life. I'm not saying this in an angry fashion, I'm simply trying to passionately impress how important I feel that item is in establishing success in relationships. And more to the point, I'm merely using the economics aspect to illustrate a bigger point which applies to other items of compatibility (sex money kids politics et al) in the pursuit of a life relationship.
If I was a woman, I would be reassured that this man is reliable, steady and passionate. All qualities I would kill for to have in a life partner. I would also not feel threatened by a prenup, and would as a woman, sign one gladly.
I have no problem with the idea of a pre-nup. My husband didn't ask me to sign one; we were young and didn't have anything anyway. To me, pre-nups seem useful when one person has premarital assets, or children by a former marriage, or something outside the marriage to preserve. Whatever a couple builds or accumulates during marriage, I see as joint property, but I understand that others disagree. Marriages among celebrities and very wealthy people, where couples divorce and exes make millions of dollars in a settlement, aren't what I am talking about. But you and I have spoken about this before:
I would be of like mind and the kind of woman that would like to be educated enough to hold some sort of gainful employment, as I, as a woman, would not have been socialized to believe my physical attributes are supposed to 'keep' me through life on account of a man's income and labor. That's if I was a woman listening to the postulations of me as hindsight2020.
But that's clearly not the feedback I'm getting. The feedback I'm getting, outside the one about 'tone', which i think it's being misunderstood (we already addressed that I don't approach people with the categorically stern way in which I write, though I am categorical in the way I live my life), is that I essentially have to tone down, not my speech, but my VALUES. I need to buy that expensive car, I need to flash my willingness to buy a woman's attention until she is satisfied with how I will materially provide for her, I need to dismiss that gibberish about prenup and go cold turkey on it again, I need to cede to a woman's vices, urges, impulses about one and any life topic, because that's the only way relationships are consumated, by ceding in all fundamental aspects of life. The feedback I get from this forum is that I need to be AGREEABLE with women, not RIGHTEOUS with women.
They want an honest, caring, strong, temperate man.....as long as he first and foremost satisfies my womanly material and emotional wants. That's the feedback i get on this forum. My rejection of that emotional suicide lands me in the purgatory of the unworthy bitter and angry men that can't see the light. That's what I get out of this forum's female feedback. I mean this in the most level headed way possible. I don't mean to attack anybody, even people on here who have made up their mind by a couple of posts they disagree with, about anything else I have to say. I'm fairly open to debating the value of the compatibility points I've highlighted, as that is really why I contribute to these threads. Ad hominem attacks, Im not so sure add anything to the conversation. My openness about my personal story is all but voluntary to share on my part. I don't have to entertain the constant attack on my character for some stranger's gratuitous sense of boredom. I could go back to sport &ucking during my nights and weekends.
Do you really feel that the "female feedback" on this forum can be categorized with one voice? Do you believe that we all have the same beliefs and values about money, cars, employment, and self-sufficiency?
The problem is in the dating ratios according to the age groups of men and women. Single men outnumber single women in the ages of 18-30 because MOST women in these age groups have boyfriends.
Past 30, when men get their money and careers together, they don't want to settle down and are not available.
The end result is that as both men and women age a man's value increases while a woman's true peak is around 25.
My point about Cdubs was that, although he left a perfectly reasonable voice message for the girl, several women on this thread came up with the most negative possible interpretations of his message. If you err on the side of interpreting people negatively, you'll certainly make it harder for yourself to find a decent man.
I actually struggled in dealing with this concept for some time while dating and I found I was putting so much pressure on myself to do what I thought the girl would interpret as "the right thing to do" instead of what I just felt naturally like reacting. It eventually lead me to have anxiety attacks and I saw a therapist only a few times.
What I learned more than anything from this: Do what makes you happy. It sounds simple, but I realized that I'll just do what's natural to me and what I feel like doing. If I feel like calling and leaving a voicemail, I'll just say whatever I'm going to say. If she doesn't respond, then that speaks to more about her and not as a reflection on me. Once I was able to let that go I never had another anxiety attack again and I sleep a heck of a lot better at night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn
I'm sorry, but whatever you think you are doesn't translate. You have so much baggage. It's doubtful you will find a decent woman willing to change her thinking to put up with all that shyte. I'm sure that sounds terrible, and I feel sorry for you, but jesus. There is no way this stuff doesn't seep off of you off line. I bet you wear it like a sign.
I'm sorry but you're in no position to judge anyone's state of mind or personality, and there's no possible way for you to know what does/does not "seep" off into the offline world. This is writing, he's sharing his thoughts, everyone has a right to vent, including him.
According to many women I've run across in the last few years and their mate choices, additional baggage should help his chances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
Let me ask you this - how is your love life? Have you had good relationships? Do you personally know a lot of women that complain about not finding a decent man? Do you personally complain about not finding a decent woman?
I'm singling this statement out as it's something that bothers me...let me ask you, why does Hans love life history or relationship status have anything to do with the validity of his opinion? This boils down the concept that women associate relationships/marriage as a benchmark of life success. Men don't. This has always been a pet peeve of mine, and I think there are many (not all) women who see marriage as a "successful achievement" that gives them a sense of superiority in society. By finding whatever guy she was looking for and getting him to sign his dedication, future children, and income/assets to her out of "love" is something that makes her better than anyone else? That just confuses me. If you found someone who loves you for who you are and you feel the same, you marry them. It doesn't make you better than anyone else.
Hans' dating/relationship history is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
I speak in generalities, which should imply I don't believe all women are that way. I speak academically about these issues, in fairly strong language, but that's not the way I interact with people offline. I recognize a rant on the merits of prenuptial agreements on the first date is not an adequate way of building a foundation in order to get to that point. So I don't think I'm actively defensive in my courting.
It's complex, but not complicated. In essence, don't trespass against me and I won't assume a defensive posture. It's really that simple. If you call me cheap because I live frugally and choose not to drive the expensive car, or live in the gated subdivision or exhibit the discretionary spending my professional level "socially demands" by judgment of your peers in your mind, and you're using that as a yardstick for why I'm not worthy of being pursued romantically by you, then you're trespassing against me. I don't think that's reasonable or warranted.
Who made women the gatekeepers of what is and what isn't worthy of pursuit? I raise no different a judgment on women, and all of a sudden I'm the one being labeled bitter and angry on this forum. It's double standard bullc--t and I'm sick of it. I don't consider getting run over in life a just opportunity cost to consummating a relationship. If that makes me inaccessible, then that's the impasse we're in then. If I have to yet again concede my values in order to appease a woman into 'gracing my life with her presence' and acknowledging a relationship with me, then I was meant to be alone. Because to me, ceding my values is objectively, unwaiverably and timelessly unacceptable as a way of conducting my life. I'm not saying this in an angry fashion, I'm simply trying to passionately impress how important I feel that item is in establishing success in relationships. And more to the point, I'm merely using the economics aspect to illustrate a bigger point which applies to other items of compatibility (sex money kids politics et al) in the pursuit of a life relationship.
If I was a woman, I would be reassured that this man is reliable, steady and passionate. All qualities I would kill for to have in a life partner. I would also not feel threatened by a prenup, and would as a woman, sign one gladly. I would be of like mind and the kind of woman that would like to be educated enough to hold some sort of gainful employment, as I, as a woman, would not have been socialized to believe my physical attributes are supposed to 'keep' me through life on account of a man's income and labor. That's if I was a woman listening to the postulations of me as hindsight2020.
But that's clearly not the feedback I'm getting. The feedback I'm getting, outside the one about 'tone', which i think it's being misunderstood (we already addressed that I don't approach people with the categorically stern way in which I write, though I am categorical in the way I live my life), is that I essentially have to tone down, not my speech, but my VALUES. I need to buy that expensive car, I need to flash my willingness to buy a woman's attention until she is satisfied with how I will materially provide for her, I need to dismiss that gibberish about prenup and go cold turkey on it again, I need to cede to a woman's vices, urges, impulses about one and any life topic, because that's the only way relationships are consumated, by ceding in all fundamental aspects of life. The feedback I get from this forum is that I need to be AGREEABLE with women, not RIGHTEOUS with women.
They want an honest, caring, strong, temperate man.....as long as he first and foremost satisfies my womanly material and emotional wants. That's the feedback i get on this forum. My rejection of that emotional suicide lands me in the purgatory of the unworthy bitter and angry men that can't see the light. That's what I get out of this forum's female feedback. I mean this in the most level headed way possible. I don't mean to attack anybody, even people on here who have made up their mind by a couple of posts they disagree with, about anything else I have to say. I'm fairly open to debating the value of the compatibility points I've highlighted, as that is really why I contribute to these threads. Ad hominem attacks, Im not so sure add anything to the conversation. My openness about my personal story is all but voluntary to share on my part. I don't have to entertain the constant attack on my character for some stranger's gratuitous sense of boredom. I could go back to sport &ucking during my nights and weekends.
I can understand what you're trying to say, we all have those frustrations at times unless we're one of the 3% of men who have figured out women and thus use our knowledge against them (I'm not one of the 3%, women still baffle me, but that's because I'm logical).
The best thing I can say in terms of how I handle this now is the DGAF mentality. Live your life, do what you want to do, do what makes you happy....and it seems like you do that. I try not to think too much into what other people say unless they can make some logical sense to me...then you have my attention. Otherwise what other people think on this matter is of no importance. I don't know how old you are, but I have asked quite a few people and been told it gets much much easier for men in their 30's/40's in the dating scene, especially if you are never married, stable income, no abuse/drug/alcohol problems, and are in decent physical shape. Then you become gold real estate. Many women stay closed minded their entire lives and they'll never be happy, I say let em be that way, they're not my problem, I don't NEED anyone. I'd like someone, but I don't require it. I think women need a relationship of some kind much more than men do, that's my opinion, not scientific fact. Tables will turn at some point, because I've heard some women wake up. They've dated enough dbags and they aren't happy and they realize it's them and they need to change. Until that happens, I don't want to be part of your learning process, I'd rather find a girl who's been through it and has learned from it like I have and knows what she wants. If it's what I have and we meet and click, then great. Otherwise, I don't want to play their game and I don't want to be part of their drama/games.
I'm singling this statement out as it's something that bothers me...let me ask you, why does Hans love life history or relationship status have anything to do with the validity of his opinion? This boils down the concept that women associate relationships/marriage as a benchmark of life success. Men don't. This has always been a pet peeve of mine, and I think there are many (not all) women who see marriage as a "successful achievement" that gives them a sense of superiority in society. By finding whatever guy she was looking for and getting him to sign his dedication, future children, and income/assets to her out of "love" is something that makes her better than anyone else? That just confuses me. If you found someone who loves you for who you are and you feel the same, you marry them. It doesn't make you better than anyone else.
Hans' dating/relationship history is irrelevant.
This is the relationship forum. He is giving his opinion on relationships. He is saying how he thinks relationships work. His personal experience is relevant in this case.
I'm have said nothing about being better than anyone else. He has been constantly spouting his take on what men/women look for - the whole stud/provider and madonna/wh*ore thing. How is not relevant to ask him what his personal experiences in relationships have been?
Being in a successful relationship means that you have been successful in relationships. It doesn't mean that you are better than anyone or more successful in life in general.
This is the relationship forum. He is giving his opinion on relationships. He is saying how he thinks relationships work. His personal experience is relevant in this case.
I'm have said nothing about being better than anyone else. He has been constantly spouting his take on what men/women look for - the whole stud/provider and madonna/wh*ore thing. How is not relevant to ask him what his personal experiences in relationships have been?
Being in a successful relationship means that you have been successful in relationships. It doesn't mean that you are better than anyone or more successful in life in general.
What defines "successful" when it comes to relationships? You could argue just having a boyfriend for a day is successful. On the flip side you could argue all of his relationships are unsuccessful since he's not happily married to one of the women at the present time.
Whether he's had a ton of relationships, a few long term ones, divorced once or multiple times, never had a gf.....it's still a valid opinion. It doesn't take away from what he says and what he's observed.
I have found that what a women tells you she wants and what she hopes she will find are two completely different things. I've seen and heard the "good, caring, funny guy" speech a dozen times but in most cases these same women are hoping that a knight in shining armor will come in a sweep them off their feet or they'll meet a millionaire by chance at the grocery store. I guess what I'm saying is their expectations are not realistic.
I'm a great guy. I'm understanding, calm, collected, funny, honest and faithful. I have a great job, my own home, a few cars and money. I'm good with kids, marriage and kids are both options etc etc, I've been told this by dozen of lady friends yet there have been maybe 10 women in my life that told me I'm not what they are looking for in a guy.
Some of these same women end up with guys that treat them like dirt, cheat on them etc. I know one that got pregnant and the guy ran out.... Just exactly what this this guy have that I didn't? Maybe i'm missing the ******* gene.. I don't know.
Last edited by johna01374; 08-08-2011 at 03:38 PM..
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