Dating Struggles in this day and age (Latin, meaning, interested)

[Hankrigby]

Originally Posted by Euskalherria

Hmmm...

Flip it all around, see if it 'counts' then.

That's the double standard. A guy that's bi actually has trouble with women and men. Most bi guys I know are bottoms when with other guys almost exclusively. And generally speaking women find that unmasculine. They see it as a submissive role. Within the gay sphere there is a common trope known as a power bottom.

And then guy guys are reluctant to be with bi men because they don't want to be left for a woman.

I have thought about this a lot and the only reason I can come up with for a gay guy but wanting to be left for a woman as opposed to another man is he'll feel like he was just a transition period until a woman came along that would have the bi guy.

So it's very common that no men lie and say they are straight or gay.

Men in general aren't granted as much forgives by society to walk the line. You're a femboy, you should understand that. A guy wearing more feminine clothing or wearing make up or this little shorts you even see women wearing gets them quite a lot of public scrutiny.

When I first came out I wanted to express some more feminine desires because I held them in so long. And I got quite a bit of flack for it, mostly from women which puzzled me.

So it's definitely one of many double standards

[Hankrigby]

Originally Posted by zentropa

It's the worst kind of sexism to say that women having sex with women doesn't count. It basically discounts female sexuality completely, rendering them objects and not participants.

Why? If a guy is with a bi woman and she has sex with other women and it doesn't bother him why is that sexist? It's a bit strange to me I'll admit. Not a judgment just an opinion. I don't know how that's a guy objectifying a woman. You'll have to explain that.

[Hankrigby]

Originally Posted by RbccL

Agreed.

Why? How is a man that's with a bi woman, staying with her even as she explores her sexuality with other women sexist? It seems the opposite of objectification.

Can you explain why your think otherwise?

[yoyogirl]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I mean... lol, like a lot of folks I have no issue talking about myself, but I do have a concern about getting all off topic and into psych stuff too much. I have known a very small number of other women who have significant commonality to my mindset and most of us have in common a childhood where our parents were capricious and unreliable. We are almost universally the oldest sibling. The rules our parents tried to enforce on us came off as just arbitrary demands for obedience when they were in the mood to notice us, rather than dependable structure, and our parents were not good at being respectable adults. Which meant that we grew up fast, developed a contempt for authority, and built our own systems of rules that made sense to US to follow instead.

Like if I can see rationale in a rule, I will follow it more strictly than most. And the rules I have made for myself, I adhere to with rigid self discipline. But if I don't agree with a rule, out the window it goes, I disregard it unapologetically.

In my case, disregarding a lot of gender rules about love, sex, and dating, came from getting mad as a teenager...I was trying to figure out how to get boys to like me, ya know, like ya do when you're just getting through adolescence... And I kept hearing so many contradictory things. If I behaved one way, I'd get called one name, the other, some other name, no matter what I did, somebody had something to say about it. So in an environment where expectations are unclear and contradictory, I was like, "fine. There's no right way to be, so I'll just do what I want."

I am not very invested in labels because I reserve the right to change my mind about who I am and what I'm doing throughout life. At the moment what is probably closest to true are words like - cis-female, but not terribly femme; heteroflexible, monogamish... All kind of "sure whatever, that works" stuff. Relationship anarchy is a whole concept I'm pretty fond of but would take explaining...better to just suggest a google of it if you're curious. One of few labels I am enthusiastically prepared to claim is "kinky" or more accurately, "Leather." Which implies much more than bedroom stuff, being involved in community and adhering to certain philosophies and ethical frameworks. THAT one is a big deal for my identity, far more than my gender is. Like it's given me opportunities for leadership, public speaking, charitable & volunteer stuff. It's a whole thing, I'm very into it. And I met my husband in that group.

But the other thing that is different about me is that I was never all that into the idea of starting or having a family, when I was dating. I mean, it happened, I did get pregnant and I raised my kids, I love them, it's fine...but it was not my goal. Not my plan. I had no vision of a husband and kids and a picket fence. I wanted to be some kind of creative professional, someone whose name would be remembered for something besides "wife to X, mother to Y, born and died, the end." At this point now, maybe I'll do something like that and maybe not, but the goal for dating was simply "good times with people I like." After my first marriage I got sterilized. I did not need a provider or a protector. I needed and wanted only quality companionship. And I have never assumed that any connection would ever last forever.

I think that this helped me with the being resilient thing. Like I'm not necessarily be cool and unfeeling, but I can let things end, pass, let people go...and not feel destroyed by it. I am honored that someone I hold in some regard chose to be part of my life for even a time. And if I don't hold them in high regard, well...either they are a mistake to learn from, or I kinda just...forget about them more or less.

And I also think that I have a certain appeal to other people (in person at least) because it goes beyond not judging, I make people feel seen and safe. Whoever you are, whatever you want, whatever you're about...like unless someone has come right out the gate being a total bombastic a-hole to me, odds are I'm going to listen, accept, try to understand, and validate their perspective. Or even if we disagree drastically, be very diplomatic and respectful about that. Also I know a ton of funny stories, and people like to laugh.

I recognize that a lot of what works for me is not really going to work for many people. But one thing I mentioned before, I think is just good advice. Which is to seek and find ~your people.~ Whatever that means for you. For me, it's these Leather club weirdos lol...but for some maybe it's a gaming group, a sports team, a volunteer group, a church, fans of some band or a book club or...I don't know. Whatever it is. Wherever you feel like people get you. And don't make it a mission to get a date, just enjoy being there, and keep going. 'Cause that's where I think chances are best for us to make those really good connections. And even if ya don't, if you are enjoying it then you're making your life better anyhow.

And I'm not even putting that in a binary against the idea of using OLD. When I joined the club, was during the time I was also on OK Cupid. I literally said in my profile, "I'm getting into kink and have joined this local club, and would prefer to date either those who are already members, or those who are willing to get into this with me." Because I knew it was gonna be a big deal for me. So if you are joining any kind of group or activity, put that on your profile! "I just joined this hiking group and would love to go on dates with someone who is willing to go hike with me!" Etc. Don't do OLD in a vacuum. Use it to augment and facilitate REAL LIFE dating.

You put forward many, many wise perspectives here, Sonic! Much above and beyond what I was even expecting.

You are an amazing human. Thank you for sharing your perspectives. Sorry I am not commenting right now. Would if I could. I hope you know you are appreciated!

[Hankrigby]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I think it counts. I've always thought so. The women I have had sex with are part of the count of partners in my mind and always were. As are a few men with whom I had sexual interactions that were not precisely intercourse.

In what way does it not count?

Generally speaking I don't think men count it because they aren't men.

This is a perplexing component of straight men I have tried to figure out. And I've talked to straight guys I know about it trying to figure it out. And this is what I've come up with. I'm not sure the accuracy but it seems to be the core of this.

A man isn't going to compare to a woman. But he is going to compare to other men. And he in his mind, and it's important to understand this is in a guys mind he is always measured up to other men. That's why to them it doesn't matter if you're with other women.

Men the way we view it and it may sound strange we're in competition with other men not with women.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by Hankrigby

Why? How is a man that's with a bi woman, staying with her even as she explores her sexuality with other women sexist? It seems the opposite of objectification.

Can you explain why your think otherwise?

1. It is often fetishized. She might be connecting in a real way with a whole other human being, have feelings for them, and here's this man thinking about it as porn.

2. The one I'd encountered... Let's say I was unhappy in a relationship with a man. Try to break up (without cheating) and he fights, fusses, argues, manipulates, gets his mother to argue his case, refuses to accept my wishes to end the relationship. Unless I say, "I've met another man." Oh, NOW that there is another whole, actual person, with whole, actual autonomy involved...now it's real. Another woman? Nah. He may even assume that he can participate somehow. Women's actions and decisions not seen as quite as firm and meaningful as those of men. A woman isn't a person who can get up and walk away, but an object which only the hand of a male can pick up and "steal." Another woman could not possibly.

3. If my partner and I are discussing an open relationship of some kind, then him telling me that I can only get it on with people he finds attractive and non-threatening...think if I reversed that and told my male partner he could only be with another guy. Because it gave me a bad feeling to know he was with someone that felt like "competition." Or how about, if my man were bisexual and I told him that he could sleep with other men because "that doesn't count" somehow? Regardless of who he had desire for at any given time.

4. In context of when that comment was originally made, we were discussing sexual history, not infidelity. So somehow female partners for a woman "don't count"...only men? Why?

5. Even the way you put it here, "exploring her sexuality" is like dabbling in a cutesy hobby. Not having an actual relationship with a whole arse other human being. What if I wanted to "explore my sexuality" with a man who is into things my husband isn't into? Is that much different? Why?

For me it has always been easier to just not have sex with other people at all when I'm in a relationship. But when my husband and I discussed it, we came to a point where he realized that in fact it wasn't really a matter of just women versus all other men...it was a question of feeling safe and respected in our relationship. As such, there was a couple I dated for a while when he and I were first together, and we're still very close friends with although it's no longer a sex/romance thing...more of a chosen family thing...but he's said that if I wanted to have sex with the man in that couple, he'd feel very differently about that than some other hypothetical man or some other men we know...because he knows him pretty well and feels that this guy respects him, me, us, our marriage. If we were to be "open" like that...which we're not...but if we were...that could possibly be alright. That was interesting, anyhow.

But ultimately I do know that we cannot always control how we feel, what makes us feel insecure or uncomfortable. It does not always align with what we may logically believe. There are times when those feelings might be his or mine to just...manage. With love and support from the other, certainly, but they don't get to dictate rules in our relationship.

[Hankrigby]

Originally Posted by RbccL

^ Point proven.

Not really. Men have to do quite a bit in order to have a chance with a woman. He has to have his own place a car, a job. He has to be swave and confident, but not arrogant or conceited. He has to maintain a masculine stoicism, even if he is a wear your heart on your sleeve kind of guy.

Much of what men do from the age of about twelve on is to find and maintain relationships with women.

All a woman has to do is not weigh 450 lbs, shower, and say yes.

That's why a guy who gets around is a stud and a lady who gets around isn't.

I'm not saying it's fair in fact I find it very sexiest and degrading toward men to objectify them for their status. But it's the way the game is played.

[Toxic Waltz]

Originally Posted by zentropa

It's the worst kind of sexism to say that women having sex with women doesn't count. It basically discounts female sexuality completely, rendering them objects and not participants.

No, when a woman sleeps with another woman it's an empathetic situation to a straight male, when a woman sleeps with a man it can only be sympathetic to a straight guy at best.

[Toxic Waltz]

Originally Posted by Hankrigby

My relationship happened completely by accident.

I think that's how a good portion of the best relationships happen, as subjective as the term best may be. We go on and on about these issues but at the end of the day when you meet the right one it just kind of happens. I know that's how it worked for me. When I tried to make something happen, it didn't. When I just let something happen, it did.

[yoyogirl]

What if all the struggle bros just started hooking up with each other?