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That's great but it's not the norm. Not by a long shot. One has to remember that men are looking for (1) looks, (2) fertility, (3) good job (money), (4) often a good family. Later in life, they want you to have your own money and in a decent or high amount, your own nice house, your own very nice car, etc. That's what strong, independent, professional women can provide.
And yes, college educated men tend to like self-actualized women.
As for the positive and negative of independence, men approach women from different angles at different times in their lives. If you're looking for a wife and mother, it's really a whole different ballgame than looking for a companion/partner. If I woke up one morning to a forced vasectomy or something or decided not to have children, it would fundamentally change my approach to dating. First, age wouldn't really matter, since many older women look good, and they tend to be more comfortable with themselves, funnier, etc. Assuming a woman takes care of herself, age is more about fertility / fertility window than looks. Second, I wouldn't be worried about losing children in a divorce, so certain real or perceived long-term risk factors would become less important.
Men [95% plus of us] don't really care about a woman's job and definitely not her car. Could be no job, could be CEO or supermarket cashier, could be the worst jalopy ever or a Bugatti, truly doesn't matter.
Women will seemingly never get/accept it, but men only care about a woman's traits - the stuff she walks around with inside and out 24/7 - not her accomplishments / trappings. I like a smart and cultured/sophisticated woman who stimulates me mentally. This tends to correlate with a career/well educated-type woman and thus that is who I've always actually dated long-term, but it wasn't causation; I never really cared about the job, or her level of formal education.
Men don't care about a woman's house either. They just want a place to have sex and hang out. House, apartment, van/RV, owned, rented, who cares. A man is going to have his own house or apartment anyway, and a couple only needs one dwelling. Sure it's nice if a woman has some money, but that's more a bonus than a requirement. Most capable men have enough money to take care of themselves and take out a woman, have her live with him (assuming she either works or pulls her weight with cooking / cleaning), etc.
As for the rest of your post (or most of it), I disagree. Not my experience.
Well I'm a man, and I've known hundreds/thousands of men, in all likelihood way way better than you ever will; experiences of total frankness and honesty unlike what women are exposed to 99.99% of the time; but you're free to think whatever you want to. I'm here to speak frankly, not pat women on the head with comforting words they want to hear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pathrunner
For real? Yeah, if you're going to live in my house for free, you sure as heck better do things that contribute to my life.
Well I'm a man, and I've known hundreds/thousands of men, in all likelihood way way better than you ever will; experiences of total frankness and honesty unlike what women are exposed to 99.99% of the time; but you're free to think whatever you want to. I'm here to speak frankly, not pat women on the head with comforting words they want to hear.
For real? Yeah, if you're going to live in my house for free, you sure as heck better do things that contribute to my life.
But when you say you want to date educated women with careers, many, if not most, do not want a man in their lives who doesn't care about who they are as people or isn't proud of them and their accomplishments. Better alone than with someone who wants a decorative object who also does chores and sex.
But when you say you want to date educated women with careers, many, if not most, do not want a man in their lives who doesn't care about who they are as people or isn't proud of them and their accomplishments. Better alone than with someone who wants a decorative object who also does chores and sex.
I'm sorry that you lack understanding of the male worldview / are so triggered that all you can think to do is blatantly distort and mischaracterize / lie about what I said. It is far from looking at women like a decorative object; it's anything but shallow, it's about essential / inborn / internal traits of a person (the inherent and the later-developed), rather than fleeting and ultimately unimportant worldly accomplishments and material goods.
I never said I wanted an educated woman with a career; I said I don't really care about women's careers (unless she's a hooker or stripper or something, which is a no), and 95% plus of men don't care. What I said is that career/education only tends to correlate with the things I like: intelligence, sophistication, etc., and therefore that career/educated women is coincidentally who I've actually dated. Who I am as a man is not what I do to make money, it's who I am: my personality, my likes and dislikes, desires and dreams, outlook and opinions, etc. If all you are as a woman is your job, I'm not interested in dating you because that's really boring.
I mean, I do get pretty damned snarly about the notion that a man would be all, "She is making noises about her work curing cancer or something, idk I wasn't really paying attention, what do you suppose is her bra size, though?" but pleg1's post up there, doesn't really bug me.
Because one of those "inherent" traits that's explicitly mentioned is a woman's intelligence and character. So it doesn't much matter if she was on a degree program, but changed her mind and is starting something different...or she is graduated from college and her ambitions are bearing fruit and she's won some award or gained some professional accolade... What a dude cares about, is how she thinks and how that impacts interactions that they have between them. I mean. That just makes sense? I don't think that it translates to a bland non-reaction if one's date told them about something that they were proud of. Wouldn't any of us be like, "hey, that's cool, good for you!" But it isn't like anybody goes on a date with another person the following week and is like, "Well...I like you and all, but the person I met last Thursday won this big corporate award at their work, so I think that they are the superior person for me to pursue...sorry..."
Right?
Now I will admit that reference, no matter how technically accurate, to "fertility" is a bit on the offputting side. I think that as a woman, if I managed to tease out a hint that a guy was mainly motivated by a desire to obtain a fully functional and anatomically correct breeding mare for his own personal stable, I would recoil a bit. As I'm sure is common with women, we want the relationship to gel first before we start even contemplating whether making babies within it is logical. Oddly I think there may be something of a flip-flop in attitudes later though. Like, you could start out with a man who is thinking about having kids, and noting that a woman he's dating is youthful and healthy and maybe even has a nurturing vibe. She isn't really thinking too much about kids at that point perhaps, though. But then later when kids are BORN, the woman's prime directive starts to be caring for the children, and the guy is mad that she isn't making him her top priority anymore.
But anyways. Yeah, alright, fair enough that if one has a desire for a family and children, one would want a partner who is probably (as best as one can tell) able to safely carry a pregnancy to term. And hopefully also WILLING to do that.
Just...I dunno, I hope that every man knows better than to refer to "fertility" in terms of a factor for attraction, on his dating profile or in hearing of a woman on dates in the first days or even months. That does feel a bit vaguely dehumanizing even if it's truth. Yeesh. Of course I cannot imagine any man reacting well if his date said, over their first or third dinner, while coldly eyeing him, "Yeah, you are tall and have decent bone structure, and you've still got your hair...I feel that your genes would produce pretty healthy offspring. Good teeth, too. Do any illnesses run in your family that you know of?"
But when you say you want to date educated women with careers, many, if not most, do not want a man in their lives who doesn't care about who they are as people or isn't proud of them and their accomplishments. Better alone than with someone who wants a decorative object who also does chores and sex.
We are also experiencing this mismatch where roughly 66% of the people with college degrees are women and just 33% of the men are going to college because guys are now falling even further behind after covid.
The less educated men are competing with more men over a very small pool of less educated women and avoiding more educated women because they correctly believe those women are more likely to not want to date them.
I'm sorry that you lack understanding of the male worldview / are so triggered that all you can think to do is blatantly distort and mischaracterize / lie about what I said. It is far from looking at women like a decorative object; it's anything but shallow, it's about essential / inborn / internal traits of a person (the inherent and the later-developed), rather than fleeting and ultimately unimportant worldly accomplishments and material goods.
I never said I wanted an educated woman with a career; I said I don't really care about women's careers (unless she's a hooker or stripper or something, which is a no), and 95% plus of men don't care. What I said is that career/education only tends to correlate with the things I like: intelligence, sophistication, etc., and therefore that career/educated women is coincidentally who I've actually dated. Who I am as a man is not what I do to make money, it's who I am: my personality, my likes and dislikes, desires and dreams, outlook and opinions, etc. If all you are as a woman is your job, I'm not interested in dating you because that's really boring.
I mean, I do get pretty damned snarly about the notion that a man would be all, "She is making noises about her work curing cancer or something, idk I wasn't really paying attention, what do you suppose is her bra size, though?" but pleg1's post up there, doesn't really bug me.
Because one of those "inherent" traits that's explicitly mentioned is a woman's intelligence and character. So it doesn't much matter if she was on a degree program, but changed her mind and is starting something different...or she is graduated from college and her ambitions are bearing fruit and she's won some award or gained some professional accolade... What a dude cares about, is how she thinks and how that impacts interactions that they have between them. I mean. That just makes sense? I don't think that it translates to a bland non-reaction if one's date told them about something that they were proud of. Wouldn't any of us be like, "hey, that's cool, good for you!" But it isn't like anybody goes on a date with another person the following week and is like, "Well...I like you and all, but the person I met last Thursday won this big corporate award at their work, so I think that they are the superior person for me to pursue...sorry..."
Right?
Now I will admit that reference, no matter how technically accurate, to "fertility" is a bit on the offputting side. I think that as a woman, if I managed to tease out a hint that a guy was mainly motivated by a desire to obtain a fully functional and anatomically correct breeding mare for his own personal stable, I would recoil a bit. As I'm sure is common with women, we want the relationship to gel first before we start even contemplating whether making babies within it is logical. Oddly I think there may be something of a flip-flop in attitudes later though. Like, you could start out with a man who is thinking about having kids, and noting that a woman he's dating is youthful and healthy and maybe even has a nurturing vibe. She isn't really thinking too much about kids at that point perhaps, though. But then later when kids are BORN, the woman's prime directive starts to be caring for the children, and the guy is mad that she isn't making him her top priority anymore.
But anyways. Yeah, alright, fair enough that if one has a desire for a family and children, one would want a partner who is probably (as best as one can tell) able to safely carry a pregnancy to term. And hopefully also WILLING to do that.
Just...I dunno, I hope that every man knows better than to refer to "fertility" in terms of a factor for attraction, on his dating profile or in hearing of a woman on dates in the first days or even months. That does feel a bit vaguely dehumanizing even if it's truth. Yeesh. Of course I cannot imagine any man reacting well if his date said, over their first or third dinner, while coldly eyeing him, "Yeah, you are tall and have decent bone structure, and you've still got your hair...I feel that your genes would produce pretty healthy offspring. Good teeth, too. Do any illnesses run in your family that you know of?"
Again, you're wasting your time. Few women are curing cancer. I'm talking about regular jobs that don't have world-altering impact. It's not that men don't have any interest at all in the career, it's that it's not a deciding factor, it's more incidental/non-crucial. And no men are openly referring to fertility, so WTH are you talking about? Yet it is a biological reality that all men are aware of and consider in their decision-making if they would like to have kids. It's not 'breeding mare,' it's called having a family. I don't think I've ever seen anyone work so hard and say so much to evade an honest grappling with the questions/issues at hand.
As for the positive and negative of independence, men approach women from different angles at different times in their lives. If you're looking for a wife and mother, it's really a whole different ballgame than looking for a companion/partner. If I woke up one morning to a forced vasectomy or something or decided not to have children, it would fundamentally change my approach to dating. First, age wouldn't really matter, since many older women look good, and they tend to be more comfortable with themselves, funnier, etc. Assuming a woman takes care of herself, age is more about fertility / fertility window than looks. Second, I wouldn't be worried about losing children in a divorce, so certain real or perceived long-term risk factors would become less important.
Men [95% plus of us] don't really care about a woman's job and definitely not her car. Could be no job, could be CEO or supermarket cashier, could be the worst jalopy ever or a Bugatti, truly doesn't matter.
Women will seemingly never get/accept it, but men only care about a woman's traits - the stuff she walks around with inside and out 24/7 - not her accomplishments / trappings. I like a smart and cultured/sophisticated woman who stimulates me mentally. This tends to correlate with a career/well educated-type woman and thus that is who I've always actually dated long-term, but it wasn't causation; I never really cared about the job, or her level of formal education.
Men don't care about a woman's house either. They just want a place to have sex and hang out. House, apartment, van/RV, owned, rented, who cares. A man is going to have his own house or apartment anyway, and a couple only needs one dwelling. Sure it's nice if a woman has some money, but that's more a bonus than a requirement. Most capable men have enough money to take care of themselves and take out a woman, have her live with him (assuming she either works or pulls her weight with cooking / cleaning), etc.
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of hundreds/thousands, thats the number of posts/ conversations I have had the displeasure of having with men who try to convince women that all women care about a man's height, job, car, house, money, taking them on expensive vacations, buying them gifts and taking them out to nice restaurants, his accomplishments/trappings as you say. Women really only care about a man's traits.
And the conversations about how women at certain points in their life when they are just looking to date only want "bad boys" who will eventually ditch them, and then they will want the good guys whom they had looked over for husband/father material (but now those guys wont have them and those women will grow old alone, haha). But women also realize this guy today is fun and exciting but not someone she sees as husband/father material.
And lets not forget the conversations of how men get screwed in the divorce and she got all his stuff, the house, half his money and the kids. Of course, that was because he didn't care that she didn't have a job with a livable wage or education/training to get one or any assets but hey, as long as she was attractive, fertile and could pull her weight cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids.
As fleetiebelle said those women who do have and education, career, earning power and accomplishments and trappings want men who acknowledge their accomplishments and see them as equally important not as an object to cook and clean.
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