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Communication and understanding is key to any friendship or relationship, including those between two folks of the same gender. In other words, both need patience and a willingness to listen/understand; and it develops over time. That said, obviously, we aren’t going to (try to) understand a woman we don’t like (particularly if she is a misandrist and/or continually refers to biased generalities regarding men sans knowing the individual).
I’m surprised how common it appears to be (at first glance) in this forum, as evidenced by this thread. Some posters are essentially (and ironically) asking/discussing whether or not all men are misogynists and/or our faults (as if it doesn’t work both ways) i.e. men don’t understand women and whatnot. It’s a blame game.
You're right about that.
When I was in my late teens, early 20's, I felt invisible to guys, or worse...rejected on principle. lol It was a feeling not really grounded in reality, except going back to junior high mean boys (and girls) which I think most people have dealt with. Couple that with being very shy. I just always felt like "No body could ever like me." And if you go around with that kind of attitude, it's real easy to jump to "Well screw them all! I'm not good enough for them?? They're stuck up! They're pigs! They're lousy humans all the way around!"
But then somewhere along the line, I figured out pretty much EVERYONE deals with insecurity in some shape or another, and nearly everyone appreciates acknowledgement, a warm smile, saying something funny and unexpected, etc. I would see people's faces light up at smiles, and acknowledging being SEEN.
AND I decided that shyness was NOT my friend, and even though it's often my natural inclination...I ignore it.
When I was in my late teens, early 20's, I felt invisible to guys, or worse...rejected on principle. lol It was a feeling not really grounded in reality, except going back to junior high mean boys (and girls) which I think most people have dealt with. Couple that with being very shy. I just always felt like "No body could ever like me." And if you go around with that kind of attitude, it's real easy to jump to "Well screw them all! I'm not good enough for them?? They're stuck up! They're pigs! They're lousy humans all the way around!"
But then somewhere along the line, I figured out pretty much EVERYONE deals with insecurity in some shape or another, and nearly everyone appreciates acknowledgement, a warm smile, saying something funny and unexpected, etc. I would see people's faces light up at smiles, and acknowledging being SEEN.
AND I decided that shyness was NOT my friend, and even though it's often my natural inclination...I ignore it.
I think everyone, even the cool kids, deal with insecurities of some sort when you are young. I was pretty shy and pretty introverted as a kid.
I'm still pretty introverted but not nearly as shy as I used to be. Over the years you have to communicate and interface with so many people that it just isn't as big of a deal to talk to people like it used to be for me. I sit in many meetings for work, sometimes I lead them, sometimes not. Just today I had to sit in a meeting and basically give out my work history, background and list my qualifications for the project I'm working on. Nothing makes me more uncomfortable than trying to sell myself and my qualifications, LOL, but whatever. It wasn't a big deal really.
In terms of this thread, I'm not really sure what the OP is driving at. Plenty of men I've known in my life, myself included like women.
Life would be incredibly awful without the ying and yang of men and women. No offense to the non-binary crowd, I'm sure they are lovely people too.
When I was in my late teens, early 20's, I felt invisible to guys, or worse...rejected on principle. lol It was a feeling not really grounded in reality, except going back to junior high mean boys (and girls) which I think most people have dealt with. Couple that with being very shy. I just always felt like "No body could ever like me." And if you go around with that kind of attitude, it's real easy to jump to "Well screw them all! I'm not good enough for them?? They're stuck up! They're pigs! They're lousy humans all the way around!"
Sure, but feeling insecure as a kid (we’ve all been there) is entirely different than the mentality of healthy men (or women) disliking an entire gender - per the thread. One would expect to hear, ‘they’re stuck-up’ (or the equivalent) from a teen girl; but it would be odd/unlikely for me to come across an intelligent female colleague who says/believes ‘men are pigs’!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnazzyB
But then somewhere along the line, I figured out pretty much EVERYONE deals with insecurity in some shape or another, and nearly everyone appreciates acknowledgement, a warm smile, saying something funny and unexpected, etc. I would see people's faces light up at smiles, and acknowledging being SEEN.
Yeah, but it’s a matter of how they handle it when they aren’t (seen). The difference, from my perspective, is healthy people don’t expect or demand acknowledgment from strangers or an entire gender. They cultivate two-way relationships and know no one is entitled to anything i.e. we have to give to get, so to speak.
I have felt unseen relative to women who angrily stereotype men in this forum (and I’m sure other men feel it too). That said, if we feel content/secure in who we are (and we receive plenty of acknowledgment or smiles from others), it’s not going to be an issue because our social needs are being met outside of a forum.
Point being, not everyone is going to ‘see’ or appreciate us; but we don’t need them to.
Sure, but feeling insecure as a kid (we’ve all been there) is entirely different than the mentality of healthy men (or women) disliking an entire gender - per the thread. One would expect to hear, ‘they’re stuck-up’ (or the equivalent) from a teen girl; but it would be odd/unlikely for me to come across an intelligent female colleague who says/believes ‘men are pigs’!
Yeah, but it’s a matter of how they handle it when they aren’t (seen). The difference, from my perspective, is healthy people don’t expect or demand acknowledgment from strangers or an entire gender. They cultivate two-way relationships and know no one is entitled to anything i.e. we have to give to get, so to speak.
I have felt unseen relative to women who angrily stereotype men in this forum (and I’m sure other men feel it too). That said, if we feel content/secure in who we are (and we receive plenty of acknowledgment or smiles from others), it’s not going to be an issue because our social needs are being met outside of a forum.
Point being, not everyone is going to ‘see’ or appreciate us; but we don’t need them to.
Can't argue with any of this. You're not wrong.
It's like people are begging (on the inside) to be noticed, but they never look at people, or smile, or acknowledge the people around them...and don't realize that's the equivalent of the lights are out, and nobody's home.
If you (in the general sense) want to be noticed, then you have to notice who's around you and engage. A lot of people are afraid to engage.
If you (in the general sense) want to be noticed, then you have to notice who's around you and engage. A lot of people are afraid to engage.
Yeah, I absolutely agree; and engaging doesn’t mean insulting/stereotyping men (or women) right out of the gate, lol. I actually think more folks lose interest in engaging than there are those who are afraid to do so. It’s natural to want to engage those who are open-minded and want to engage us as well.
I amazed how many threads on here complain about the other party not taking the initiative to get together.
They don't seem to grasp the concept that a lot of people are busy and are simply not initiators. That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't welcome you taking the initiative.
My experience is that in most friendships or relationships, one party tends to be the initiator. Now sometimes they don't want to get together, but that is usually not true with long time friends.
Today, the "laughter" is a metaphor for getting MeToo'ed (for just tapping a woman on her shoulder while looking too unattractive for her standards), which means losing your career, your reputation, and your society's respect.
Thankfully, Covid took over MeToo as a worshipped idol. While it brought its own problems, it drowned out MeToo.
This is a fantasy in your own mind. Please come up with some cases where tapping a woman on the shoulder has resulted in ANYTHING happening to ANYONE. Men are always crying that false accusations of rape will ruin their entire academic careers, careers in general, their entire lives. And yet because of this misperception, people go out of their way to turn a blind eye and overcompensate. These guys do just fine with everyone commiserating. I just don't buy anything of what you're saying.
This is a fantasy in your own mind. Please come up with some cases where tapping a woman on the shoulder has resulted in ANYTHING happening to ANYONE. Men are always crying that false accusations of rape will ruin their entire academic careers, careers in general, their entire lives. And yet because of this misperception, people go out of their way to turn a blind eye and overcompensate. These guys do just fine with everyone commiserating. I just don't buy anything of what you're saying.
I bit my tongue on this one, wrote a whole thing and then changed my mind. He and I have argued before and he has never shifted from his manosphere saturated opinions, and it's been years. He's already acknowledged that between baggage from his family of origin, the way a couple of guy friends abandoned him (he believes because of their tyrant wives) and all of the sitcoms he's watched, he will forever insist that women are "Hitler in heels on God Mode" out to subjugate and ruin men.
Even attempting to shift his thinking is way above our pay grade. Just saying.
So more to the point in the recent page and comments here, and I agree with a lot of what Corporate Cowboy is saying... I just want to say that when I have believed that men don't even LIKE women, it was men who put that idea there in my head. It was things I was told by men. Starting with the first boys I interacted with in high school, and there was the way my father acted, and then there was my first husband who really tried to hammer that idea into my mind.
The thought being that yes, men like to have sex, but they mainly see women as inconvenient life support for our sex organs. Nookie on the hoof, if you will. lol. They don't respect us, they don't care about who we are, what our personalities are, any of the things that I value about myself as the human being who lives inside the skull of this body are irrelevant to a man. The only reason any man would even pause to sigh in annoyance and consider such aspects, is if a woman is bothering him with her noise and he needs to make her stop, or perhaps in evaluating if she will be a good mother to his children, or to figure out how to trick her into consenting to sex.
It is all about his convenience, his use of her, not about "liking." And men and women can never, ever be friends. Unless perhaps she is so ancient or hideous that he won't think sex thoughts...and even then she's likely invisible.
Also? Men who push this notion, usually try to tell you that even though they know what it's like to be a man, and I don't, because they are men and I'm not...THEY are special and different because they love me and it's all of the OTHER men out there who are like this. So I'd better not talk to any of THEM.
And when it travels its path of twisted logic and lands on this conclusion, the agenda is revealed. You have an insecure man who feels a need to train "his" women (daughters, sisters, girlfriends, wives?) to avoid competing men they don't feel they measure up to, to do the work of protecting his territorial interests for him. Probably. Or else, the other thought I eventually had that really was quite liberating for me...that said man is in fact telling you who he is, rather than telling you who "men" are. "Men" aren't like that, he's like that.
And no, healthy and mature people do NOT think this way. Breaking away from this thinking was a huge part of getting away from abuse and harm and healing myself and going forward into my present happiness. I labored under this enforced delusion at least partially (it was often a source of conflict in my head and I didn't always accept it) for years...well into my 20s at least.
And most men are aware that they're NOT naturally desirable to women.
We don’t find all women to be ‘naturally’ desirable, either; all this means is there is a lot more that goes into desirability (for most) than just one’s gender in and of itself.
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Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
So when a woman shows interest, be it in friendship, a serious relationship, or casual sex, whether done overtly or subtly, most men get suspicious, rather than excited.
Most (psychologically healthy) women and men are able to communicate how they feel and/or whether or not they’re interested in each other - be it for friendship, casual sex, or a relationship.
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Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
They're not sure of her motives; after all, people aren't mind readers.
Hence the reason communication is necessary. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63
Men are always crying that false accusations of rape will ruin their entire academic careers, careers in general, their entire lives.
False accusations of rape do ruin careers/reputations; hence there are several actions one can take from a legal standpoint, depending upon applicability.
That said, rather than address the women who make false accusations or the actual rapists, you verbally attack ‘all men’ who are ‘always crying’, thereby breaking-it-down to an off-putting and prejudicial remark (substantiating my point re: misandry relative to the thread).
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is a metaphor for getting MeToo'ed (for just tapping a woman on her shoulder while looking too unattractive for her standards), which means losing your career, your reputation, and your society's respect. 